What to do with older slackers?

[Stosh]

"We laid out for him all the things he needed to improve on and be doing and that he had to be EXTREMELY active and engaged for 4 months to make up for 4 years of coasting and his mom running interference."

 

Where's the leadership in that process? The adults solve the problem and tell the boy what hoops to jump through. He gets no lesson in leadership.

 

When my slackers get an earful from me they get no "solution" to their problems. My "Slug" was not "instructed" in what he had to do to get his act together, but he was left alone to think, ask, learn and develop, all initiated by HIM not some adult dictating what he had to do.

 

When my Eagle Scout quitter made it evident that this is what was going to happen, he was given the task of letting me know what he recommended I say to the EBOR when they asked me for a recommendation, which they traditionally do. He stood there and didn't say anything. I stood there a full minute waiting for an answer. I then said, "Okay then, silence it will be. Thank you." And I haven't heard any new suggestions from the boy since, but he does continue to come and lead his patrol activities.

 

Once the onus of leadership falls on the scouts, they are responsible for developing solutions to their problems, planning out their actions and fulfilling their commitments. They can do any and all of this without adult interference. Adults are open to and provide support for THE BOYS' decisions and efforts.

 

My boys all know my pet phrases, "best leaders are the best followers", "safety first", "those that fail to plan, plan to fail", "lead by example", etc. Then when they screw up, I don't have to spend a lot of time pointing this out to them. They know they screwed up and they know why.

 

I have had boys then ask what they need to do to fix things and make them better the next time. They never get told what they have to do. Every phrase used by me and my ASM's all need to start with, "You might want to think about...." or "If it was me, I'd..." or "I don't know, what do the boys in your patrol think..." or some variation which may offer some guidance, but leaves the true onus of leadership on the boy.

 

Once the adults begin to see these older boys as peers in leadership, they tend to want to hang around. If the SM is nothing more than a pseudo-parent/teacher/coach/pastor in a brown shirt, they always have the option to leave at anytime. Can't do that at home, school or church, but they can surely do it with scouts. We all know why they leave, but do we know why they stay?

 

Stosh

[Oak Tree]

I spoke to his Mother in a casual conversation and she has noticed the same lack of spirit and it concerns her... so I am optimistic that family will step in and address the issue.

 

I wish you luck with that, but my experience is that parents are usually not either 1) in the right position or 2) possessed of the right toolset to address their sons' attitudes. I have seen some kids grudgingly do more work when their parents push them, but I don't think I've yet seen one where the parent had a talk with them and they came to the next meeting a changed teenager. "My mom had a talk with me and I realized that I was showing a bad attitude so I decided to change things. I'm going to be happy, enthusiastic, participative, and encouraging to all the other Scouts. I'm glad she showed me the error of my ways."

 

Just not in the cards...

[Eagle92]

Ok I was the slacker as a scout. Sr year of HS was the worse as I was invloved in JROTC and a cheerleader (great way to meet girls, just don't date your partner), and while I was "active" attednign meetings when I could and actively playing an instructor role when at the meetings, advancement wise I was a slacker. Let's face it 4 years as a Life Scout with only MBs to complete to get Eagle (I did my project within 4 months of turning Life and had it out the way ASAP), THAT'S A SLACKER.

 

Well Scouts who I was PL and ASPL for started getting their Eagle. One nite I made a joke about "getting old because XYZ is now eagle." Well my Sm gave me his look and very calmly but sternly made a comment about setting goals in life and working to acheive them, because time does run out. THAT was the push for me to complete the last two MBs I needed for Eagle, and just in time: completed the las one 5 days before the 18th birthday!

[Eagledad]

>>I have seen some kids grudgingly do more work when their parents push them, but I don't think I've yet seen one where the parent had a talk with them and they came to the next meeting a changed teenager.

[Oak Tree]

Eagledad,

 

Absolutely agreed. Building a partnership with the parents is one of the most valuable things the Scoutmaster can do. Complete attitude makeovers are pretty rare, but I've certainly seen more than a few Scouts kick it up a notch when the right adult made the right suggestion at the right point in the Scout's career. And this is definitely more likely to happen when the parents are part of the equation.

[Stosh]

One can enlist the help of all kinds of people, teachers, peers, other scouters, but until the boy cares about scouting, one isn't going to gain much ground. Getting more people to push will get the car down the road quicker and easier, but it still isn't going to do much to get the car started if it's out of gas.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

>>but it still isn't going to do much to get the car started if it's out of gas.

[Stosh]

I don't know if these kinds of comments are attempts to push my buttons or what, but it doesn't work. I have had some of the best scouts, adults and youth from a variety of different program try their best and it doesn't work.

 

It's an just a little story to indicate that if the Scout doesn't care about scouting, no amount of prodding, cajoling, bribery, threats or force from SM, ASM, peers, parents, or innocent by-standers is going to have an impact on changing the Scout's mind. The only person that can make such a change is the Scout himself, and it has nothing to do with the kind of car it is, nor whether or not it is a manual or stick transmission, or whether it needs diesel, regular, unleaded or high-octane fuel/gas(oline)/petro(leum) or an outlet to plug in.

 

Unfortunately a lot of people don't realize it and force their boys to continue with programs that they have no interest in and eventually the boy is going to rebel and there will be problems.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

>>I have had some of the best scouts, adults and youth from a variety of different program try their best and it doesn't work.

[Stosh]

I never did.

 

Stosh

[Mike F]

This thread has been a little hard to follow.

 

I've seen at least 2 different situations that look similar on the surface.

 

First type are boys who just aren't engaged. I've had some luck with a JLT workshop which focuses on getting buy-in from the group by developing a shared vision. This goes way beyond where we want to go camping. It's more about about shared sense of identity and goals for the troop - and for them as individuals. Then the camping and other activities fall into place as a way to work toward those goals. After they've been part of laying this foundation, most of the guys are more interested in helping make it happen. We've been doing this for about 4 years and have had good luck with keeping most of the guys very active all the way to college - and some into the college years.

 

The second type are boys who have made up their mind they don't want to be in scouts, but parents won't let them quit. These boys get dumped at meetings with a chip on their shoulder and seem to be begging someone to throw them out. We try to turn them around and are sometimes successful. Sometimes they are just going through a phase and will wake up. If they are hanging around the edges for an extended period of time or are particularly disruptive, I will eventually tell a boy he's not doing himself or anyone else any favors by hanging around something he doesn't like and he needs to either decide to get in the game or get out. I even volunteer to talk to his parents about letting him drop. This usually comes as a shock. A few were thankful and have taken me up on it.

[Stosh]

Mike, I think you have done well to summarize the issue. I think the way you have resolved some of these issues is spot on.

 

Often we get boys who loved Cub's but aren't at all interested in the deeper challenges of Boy Scouting. Maybe their father was an Eagle scout and their goal is to get their boys to the same level, but the boy would prefer being a violin player in the orchestra over being at a campfire.

 

Sometimes as the boy matures, his interests change, but the troop program can't accommodate it.

 

There are some boys that are overly motivated and move on quickly into a strong Scouting career.

 

So that means we are left with sorting out the boys and doing the best with what we are dealt. One is going to win some, some we're going to lose.

 

For those who don't think it's working, here's a clip from an email I received this morning. It relates not to the average BS troop, but to my Venturing Crew which specializes in Reenacting for older boys!

 

"Dear Capt. B_____,

 

If I were to list all the reasons why I am interested in the Civil War we would both be old by its completion.However I can sum it up by saying that The Civil War was for me what dinosaurs were for every one else when I was a lad. When I got a little older my grandfather took me to an archery shoot where I met my best friend. He shared my fascination for the war between the states together we formed an unofficial organization called: The Cross Rivers Infantry Division. Our group never got very big, to date it is only 7 members strong, but every year we'd put on our hats and grab our cap guns. Basically all we did was build fortifications and practice the various commands, actually we once made a Gatling Gun out of card board tubes and a noise maker, but its really quite enjoyable. When I moved to W____ S_____ in sixth grade I marked my calender for a date three years in the future because I had heard about the program you did with the eight graders. I could go on, the first reenactment I saw, my trip to Gettysburg and Antietam, movies, books, and well every thing you could think of really. But I should give you my contact information.

 

(personal info edited out)

 

I can't wait for the new season, I'm already looking around for jobs and equipment. Hopefully see you in November.

 

-D________

 

P.S. How do ranks work as far as promotion and dutys?"

 

So remember, these are the "older boys" that Scouting seems to be losing! So where are the boys that feel the same way about being outdoors and camping? They are there, what are we doing to provide them with opportunities and programs that fit their excitement?

 

This gentleman represents one of two recruits we garnered up at our latest local reenactment. It also reflects a long discussion I had with one of our non-local reenactors who would like to establish Venturing Crews in 4 other locations within our state and how our Crew can assist in that process.

 

When we make opportunities, we also have to have a program that meets the needs of those wishing to take advantage of them. A ton of boys and girls turned out for our reenactment, but I picked up two, not because I was recruiting, but because the program sold itself and excited them to act on their dreams. This is what all scouting should be doing regardless of age. We do well with FYFC and fair with Life 2 Eagle, but how many programs are designed to meet the needs of boys "Life AFTER Eagle?" When we drop the ball, so do the boys.

 

Stosh

[dc981924]

This is an interesting thread - the subject of older scouts as "slackers" caught my attention.

 

Our troop loses older scouts when they hit high school where the extracurricular activities and schoolwork take up their time. I don't think all of our older scouts are "slackers" but there's little incentive to come to meetings or campouts. I was part of a Philmont crew this summer with some outstanding boys - top notch students and really good role models. Most of them were juniors that I'd never met in the troop before - and this is my third year as an ASM with the troop.

 

What I've read so far makes sense:

- the boys have to want to be there and do the work

- parents have to be involved but cannot do the work for the boys

- adult scouters need to be up front with the boys about expected participation - would you roll this under "Scout Spirit"?

 

I'm also interested in your experience / insight on what we as adult leaders can do to help older scouts stay involved in the program for their own development and to serve as mentors / examples to the younger scouts.

 

Stosh's example was a good one - the kids in his Venturing crew are all interested in re-enactment. I also thought the JLT training example was interesting - and would be good to hear more about - it sounded like the boys set their own vision and the adults helped them accomplish it over the course of the year.

 

I'm sure there are examples of things a Boy Scout troop can do as well - leadership training, high adventure programs, and other fun activities geared to older scouts (e.g., rifle / shotgun shooting, rapelling, etc.)

 

I got the impression that some of you clearly communicated to your boys that they had to stay involved with the troop / crew in some way as part of their advancement to higher ranks such as Life and Eagle. Is this true and, if so, how well did it work?

 

I do have a reason for asking - I've got four boys, all in the same troop. Two are 9th graders, one is in 7th grade, and one in 6th grade. I'm trying to help the troop develop opportunities for them so they want to stay involved. This is also something I have as my Wood Badge ticket - how to keep older scouts engaged and involved in the troop. Keeping older boys involved does seem to be a problem with most folks I talk to - the answer can't just be cram them into Eagle before the gasoline and perfume hit.

 

Sorry for the long message - thanks in advance for any input.

[Mike F]

DC,

 

Too much for me to reply in one note. Keep reading - there are tons of great ideas in these threads. And you'll see common themes reappear over and over. Many of us have different approaches and will argue energetically for ours.

 

One thing I know for certain, the boys have to want to be involved. A little pressure is OK, but if you turn up the screws too hard (via scout spirit or leadership requirements), they'll just leave.

 

Biggest thing is adjusting the expectation. I have literally heard multiple Scoutmasters say they didn't expect their high school guys to make many meetings or any campouts. I quote, "They have done their time. Now we give them the freedom to just work on their Eagle." What an incredible mistake.

 

Send me a PM if you'd like to talk some time.