They Cant or Wont Organize an Outing (what to do...)

[CalicoPenn]

Ok - I'm a little bit confused, mostly because I'm unsure just what is meant by "organizing an outing". Does it mean the PLC doesn't get together to put together a calendar of events and outings? To me, the solution to this is easy - if the PLC doesn't put together a calendar of events and outings, there will be no events and outings because the adults won't plug the gap.

 

Does it mean they can't come up with new ideas? The solution is to provide them with resources - it could be as simple as a Road Atlas showing all the state and national parks in a set area (100 miles radius? Maybe 200 miles of interstate driving two times a year - not including Summer Camp?). I know from my home, the Road Atlas shows a number of locations for camping and hiking in Illinois, Wisconsin and Indiana within a two-hour drive - and I live near Chicago. There are books in just about every state that list watchable wildlife sites, or "50 day hikes" that can be used as a reference. Here's a suggestion that could be maintained by the Librarian. Create files of interesting places to visit - as Scouts and their families go through visitor information rest stops, pick up brochures of places that might be interesting for a visit and file them (I used a milk crate). During the planning session, haul out the files and spend a little time just thumbing through them. The internet can be great, but sometimes its more helpful to hold a brochure talking about an intersting natural area, or a museum that might start the thinking about where to go.

 

Does it mean they won't plan the activities, and put together the menus and duty rosters, for the trip? This is where the Scoutmaster simply states that if there is no plan (written) for the trip, they trip won't go because the Scoutmaster won't ask any adults to give up their time for a weekend of hanging out in a campsite doing nothing.

 

Does it mean they can't or won't do the logistics of the trip? Though this is certainly part of organizing a trip, logisitics handling is one of the things the Committee does to assist the program. Making sure there are enough adults to attend and drivers to drive should be the committee's responsibility. Making reservations at a State Park? Again, committee (not many state parks will accept a reservation for a group campsite from a 15 year old SPL). The SPL, his PLC, and the Troop Officers (Quartermaster, etc.) should be busy planning the activities, and making sure they and their equipment is prepared to go on the trip.

[Mafaking]

 

Ok break it down for me. Where is the adult/youth line

 

PLC Approves the following:

Campout, Birch River overnight canoe outing, April 2010.

 

Troop has never gone there before but it is commonly known that many council Boy Scout troops have taken this trip. It is 100 miles from the meeting hall.

 

The next step is what and who takes it?

 

 

 

[Twocubdad]

I disagree Calico. That's not boy led, that's boy run off into a ditch.

 

We as adult leaders are here to deliver a program to the Scouts. ONE PART of that program is youth leadership. What you describe sacrifices the other parts of the program at the feet of the youth leadership. How does a cancelled campout support the Patrol Method or the Outdoor Program or any other of the aims and methods?

 

Controlled failure may be an effective teaching tool, but unless there is a cause and effect between the failure and the consequence of that failure there is no lesson. The lessons of a cancelled trip may be felt by the senior scouts, but I question the trickle-down lesson to the rest of the troop. We can say the rank-and-file troop members should learn to select more responsible leaders, but really? Can you expect a 12-year-old to make that connection to troop elections six months from now?

 

All those guy are learning is that they belong to a lame scout troop which doesn't deliver.

[CalicoPenn]

I see nothing wrong with letting the boys run off into a ditch on occasion - if the occasion calls for it. Part of being boy-led is that failures are part of the lesson - and there should be no reason to avoid a major failure (a cancelled outing due to lack of planning by the PLC) for the sake of "the program". I'm not suggesting that the adults shouldn't be stepping in to assist if the PLC is making an effort and is getting bogged down, nor am I suggesting the adults shirk their share of the responsibilities (tour permits, drivers, etc.). What I'm suggesting is that if the PLC isn't planning and prepping for a trip, hasn't made a plan beyond "Arrive, Set-up, Hang-out, Leave", that it's prefectly alright to announce to the PLC that this is unacceptable, and a waste of the Adult's time, and that if this is the entirety of the plan, the adults simply will not be available and the trip will be cancelled. I suggest giving them plenty of notice, and I see nothing wrong with the Scoutmaster announcing a couple of Troop meetings before the trip is scheduled that because the PLC has failed to properly plan the trip, it is, for the moment, cancelled unless the PLC prepares a proper plan by the next meeting. Either the PLC will get the trip planned (through pressure from their charges) or they won't and will try to call your "bluff". Just don't make it a bluff - stick to it. I'll bet you won't have to do this more than once.

 

Learing to get out of the ditch is a pretty important lesson in itself.

[GernBlansten]

If we followed Calico's advice, our troop would fold in 6 months. We have tried it, let them fail, but they don't spring back the next time and do better. They just lose interest, quit coming to meetings, find other things to do that require much less work on their part. I'm not sure its laziness or what. But it does exist.

 

Our unit was most robust and kept scouts most engaged when we were essentially a weblos 3 troop. The adults did all the planning and execution, the scouts did all the fun. 70 active strong. A very packed calendar, camping every month, sometimes twice. But that SM retired the year after my son crossed over and the new SM moved us towards boy led. it was a rough few years but we kept the hope. Now, 6 years later, we do fewer and fewer campouts and the boys complain scouting isn't any fun. We enable them to plan fun activities, but the PLC pretty much just gives us blank stares. We prime the pump with ideas that the troop used to do, get some excitement, but never get follow through. The few campouts our unit now does are still adult planned and executed. Sure the patrols do their own meal plans, but that's where it ends as far as the patrol method is.

 

I thought it was just young scouts, but my venture crew has the same issues. I refuse to plan and execute a single activity for them, leaving everything including meeting schedules to them. Same result. No activities, no meetings, except the high adventures (Philmont and Ntiers) that I had to get the reservations for. Had I not done that, we wouldn't have a crew, not that we really do.

[evmori]

There is nothing wrong with letting them fail as long as they learn from the failure. If they don't then it's time for some adult guidance.

[GernBlansten]

Ed, the point is that they AREN'T learning from it. They aren't taking ownership of the problem. They are just detaching and moving on.

In our ADHD world, if at first you don't succeed, oh well, try something different.

[Lisabob]

There is a very fine line. On one hand, if you let failure take place with scouts who do have the skills but just don't want to be bothered to do the background work, it might result in an eye opening experience for them. On the other hand, if you do this with scouts who do not really have the skills, and/or if you allow it to happen often, you will lose membership very quickly.

 

I hear the frustration Gern expresses all the time. Sometimes I understand it and agree; most of the time I think it is misplaced. Older doesn't always mean better prepared. Let's face it, most troops operate where the adults do most of the leg work. "Boy led" is interpreted minimally. So it is not surprising that the kids in your Crew don't know what they're doing Gern, even though they're all at least 14. Where would they have learned this?

 

Every year in my son's troop, I hear adults express similar frustrations with the youth leadership (PLs and SPL in particular). "They're not stepping up!" "They aren't being serious!" "They aren't..." whatever. You know what though? There is little evidence of serious leadership mentoring going on. Yeah ok there's TLT twice a year. It is a dud. Semi-annual viewings of the Tommy Tenderfoot videos won't cut it if you're serious about teaching leadership. And there's even less actual mentoring for how to organize an event (TLT tends to focus on how to lead a patrol...sort of). You have to be willing to sit down and show the boys how to do every step of the process. You have to be willing to answer a hundred questions that you think are obvious.

 

Let's take a look at Mafaking's scenario. (His troop sounds a lot like my son's, by the way). OK, the boys selected a canoe outing 100 miles away, for April. Supposing that you really want them to do as much of the legwork as possible, what are some of the next steps they need to take?

 

1. They need canoes, paddles, PDFs.

 

Does the troop have these, or will they be renting? In the former, do you have enough and are they in good repair? This will require some inspection, maybe with a canoe merit badge counselor along side to offer input. That requires they locate the equipment and arrange to go have a look with a knowledgeable adult.

 

The boys should expect to report to the SM and maybe to the committee at the next committee meeting, so that any new equipment can be budgeted for, or existing equipment repaired.

 

They'll also need to think about transportation of the canoes (does the troop have a trailer for this? Can one be borrowed? What about a driver?)

 

Or will the troop be renting these? In that case they need to find one or more canoe liveries in the area. What will the costs be? What is included? Are the dates they have in mind available? If not, what are some alternative dates (before they start calling they should know this.)

 

THat will require some web investigation, maybe phone calls, and/or emails. They'll need to know where they are going, look at a map to discern nearby locations, and then do a google search for liveries in that area. Or, you could recommend to them that they call Mr Jones from another troop who has been there recently, and ask him for the name of the livery that troop used.

 

2. They need campsite reservations. If it is a busy area, they need to do this now, but they may not realize that on their own. Someone will need to help them understand that trips like this are often planned a full year in advance. Again, reservations will require some web investigation, some phone calls, and/or some emails. Before they get started, make sure they know WHO the reservations would be for (Boy scouts yeah, but how many of you?), WHAT they need to reserve (type of campsite), WHEN (dates and backup dates), and WHERE (general area - which probably requires you talk about the route you'll take and how far to go each day, first).

 

Then they probably need to get back together, compare notes about options, seek your input, and get an adult to make the actual reservation. They'll need deadlines by which to get the above done, and someone may want to follow up with the boys tasked to do these things, in order to ensure it actually happens.

 

That's just for two steps in the process and it is a WHOLE LOT of work for your typical 13 year old. We haven't figured out how they'll get there, how they're going to pay for this, how they'll ensure that they have enough BSA swimmers, what they'll do about non-swimmers who want to canoe, and a million other details of the actual camp out.

 

What seems easy to us (because we've made reservations for groups before) is pretty overwhelming to someone who has no experience with this. For kids, you may also need to coach them a little in how to make a business phone call. "Hey uh do you have canoes" at 4:59pm on a Friday is not going to produce a good response from some clerk on the other end of the phone.

 

If you just tell the boys - go figure out where we can camp and where we can rent canoes - without all sorts of additional detail, you'll get deer in the headlights looks back at you.

[GernBlansten]

Lisa,

Your example is a complicated planning session that, frankly, a majority of our adults couldn't execute, let alone 13 year olds.

 

Lets go simple. A simple weekend outing to a familiar campground. The PLC put it on the calendar during the annual planning session. Two months before, the SM sits down with the PLC and "mentors" them through the planning process. He engages the SPL to start planning. Gets a blank stare. Then explains what needs to be done. Another blank stare. Suggests the SPL assign other members of the PLC to complete the tasks. The SPL repeats what the SM just said. The other members give back blank stares. The SM reminds the SPL to assign detailed expectations and deadlines. The SPL repeats the SMs advice. Blank stares all around. The SM asks the PLC to write down what they need to do before the next meeting. The SPL asks for a pen.

 

Next meeting, the SM asks the SPL for status. Blank stare. He then "advises" the SPL to get status from his PLC. He returns saying they haven't done anything yet, but promised to. Nothing gets done but the airing of excuses and empty promises. SM warns the SPL that the campout is in jeopardy.

 

Campout comes and things haven't been planned. There's no reservation, no driver list, no meal plans, no agenda. Big flop. Oh well, the boys will learn from their mistakes. Scratch that failed outing as a learning experience.

 

Next PLC, the SM asked what went wrong. Blank stares.

 

Anyone else seen that scenario playout in your troop? Have you allowed it happen? We have. And they didn't learn from it.

[Lisabob]

Gern, it isn't my example - it is Mafaking's. And I agree it is really complicated. I know as an adult that when my son started in scouting, I wouldn't have been capable of planning this because I didn't know enough about how such outings work. Even now, I'd be running my plans by several other adults who had done similar outings in the past, to tell me what I'm overlooking.

 

Your example is simpler but I tell you, it sounds to me like the SM is playing "oldest SPL in the world" in the scenario you describe. Not surprising, maybe, that none of the boys are taking the SPL seriously. They believe the SPL is not empowered and is merely a mouthpiece for the adults.

 

And yes, I have seen that happen just about every PLC I've gone to (the blank stare parts). Adults then **** and moan about it to the other adults. No one takes the SPL aside and actually teaches him what to do. No one brings the SPL on board as an equal partner and gets his input. Those same adults also tend to shoot down the barest glimmers of original thought or initiative shown by any of hte boy leaders and so the boys all "know" that there's no point in speaking up and voicing their views. The SPL doesn't believe he'll be honestly listened to if he does that, because that isn't his prior experience. Even a change of regime among the adults takes a long time to filter down because the boys have to unlearn their passive behavior, and among other things, that requires a lot of trust and consistency.

 

 

 

Gunny said on the first page somewhere, it takes only one such experience, or memory of that experience, to kill boy-led initiative. The boys are so used to being told what they can't do.

 

Edited to add: Each and every lesson that you want someone to learn has to be guided, or you risk the "student" learning the wrong thing. In the case of a failed camp out, the "lesson learned" by the boys needs to be carefully structured or else they'll just learn that "this troop is boring." Other than asking the PLC "what went wrong?" What else did the SM do to help structure the lesson?(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[Mafaking]

 

"Anyone else seen that scenario playout in your troop?" Yes

 

"Have you allowed it happen?" No

 

I would (and have) bumped it along by making reservations at the site. Too many hours were spent getting to the point of having a campout listed for a month with a date and location selected.

 

We don't have too many just camping in the county park type outings. Given the choice the scouts pick the top tier stuff were the activities are obvious.

 

I would tell the PLC that the reservation has been locked in. From the planning calendar plan we know the event at the campout e.g. Pioneering, fishing, kayaking, swimming , hiking.... I would then probe the scouts at the PLC to assess their ideas for their campout expectations. Fish all day or fish half a day?

 

Then it would be up to the PL to inform their patrols on what to equipment bring and the meals needed.

 

 

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

...and after my rant, I check my email last night and my ASPL has emailed the entire troop, tasking specific scouts with meal responsibilities for our family campout at the end of the month. Asks for recipes, detailed ingredients lists and costs to be reported back to him at the next troop meeting... and without any prompting by an adult leader...

 

so there is hope.........

 

;-)

 

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Yes, there are breaks in the clouds that keep hope alive!

 

However, as soon as the SM sees the planning process breaking down and steps in to pick up the pieces, the scouts aren't learning from their mistakes. Compound that with the popularity contests we hold every 6 months that rotate scouts through the PLC. Tough to learn from your mistakes when in 6 months someone else will be in your shoes.

[eagle77]

I think part of the problem is training the boys in what areas of the planning are theirs and which is adult. In our troop we have a PLC meeting every month, seperate from the troop meeting. At this meeting the SPL is given a check list for the upcoming months trip. This list is broken down with scout and adult areas that need to be checked off by the end of the meeting. My scouts don't make reservations nor do they drive, so that area is covered by the adults, but is still listed on the sheet so that the scouts can really see and appreciate what is involved in planning even the simplist of trips. The more involved the trip the more each group needs to take on. Both adults and scouts. At the end of the trip before we leave we do a rose and thorn type thing to look at what needs improvement and what worked just fine. I don't believe the scouts should be involved directly with each item for a trip but they do need to know what is totally needed by all to make it happen.

[Beavah]

Troop has never gone there before but it is commonly known that many council Boy Scout troops have taken this trip. It is 100 miles from the meeting hall.

 

The next step is what and who takes it?

 

Yah, this is da sort of practical question I like.

 

Of course the real answer depends on the experience of the lads in that troop, eh? In some cases the answer is "the PLC assigns a kid to it, he does the research, makes the reservations, and sets up the meetin' nights to get ready for it." But Mafaking has already said he has some younger, inexperienced fellows.

 

My answer would be that he encourages the PLC to appoint a small workin' group of 2-3 boys for each outing. Then the SM or ASM make a date with those boys to drive out and check it out. Can be a fun day trip. Go look at what campsites are available, go talk to the outfitters. Coach 'em a bit with what questions to ask before they talk to the outfitters, but let 'em forget about stuff and have to drive back after goin' a few miles to ask some more questions. Take a look at da river, and distances, all that kind of stuff. Kids do so much better with planning when they can see, touch, feel, and smell an area, eh? That way it ain't so abstract.

 

Another thing to do is to call up another troop yeh know who runs that outin', and have the lads workin' on the trip visit with their youth leaders who have done the trip, eh? Have 'em say what's cool, how far they went, how hard it is, what to bring, what to watch out for. All that. Buy ice cream and let 'em go at it. Check in advance to make sure the other troop brings paper plans and maps and such that they've made copies of so that the boys have somethin' to look at and write on and take home with 'em.

 

Then when they've got da beta (the info from the other troop and the outfitters), and they've gotten da feel, sit with 'em and coach 'em on setting up a plan. A budget. A safety plan. Workin' logistics like car shuttles and whatnot. Where they don't know how to proceed and are just stuck, give 'em some structure to help or do it with (not for) them. Where they can fumble through on their own, let 'em fumble.

 

Then have 'em present their plan for approval at the next PLC, so da other PLs can check it over and catch any possible problems or better ideas (and so da other PL's can see what a plan looks like and how to present one, eh? ).

 

See what you've done? Their activity, their plan, their presentation. And it's fun - they got to visit and pal around with another troop, they got to go on their own private day trip. Da small ways the adults coached 'em they'll forget about, and what they'll remember is that they can do it, and how to go about it, and the other boys will have seen their example. Next time, you'll need to do less, and they'll be handlin' more on their own.

 

Ain't this Scoutin' stuff just like magic?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)