how to explain policy to a scout

[CalicoPenn]

If I'm understanding the question correctly, the question isn't about the policy at all - the question is why is it ok to use the definition of the word but not the word itself.

 

And that's one tough question to answer. I think I would explain that sometimes people just get hung up over words and that sometimes we have to make adjustments in what and how we communicate just to navigate through the jetties of life, and that alhough we may have changed how we express our thoughts, we are still being truthful.

 

It's the late teens where these questions start to come up - and the black-and-white thinking starts to change, with the ability to think in shades of gray more fully developed by the early 20's. It doesn't happen overnight - I think it is probably the longest period of emotional and moral development - from about 16 to about 25. It's interesting to note just how noticeable the developmental differences between freshmen and seniors in high school - freshman and sophmores still see the world in the 7th & 8th grade black-and-white way. By junior year, that just starts to change - especially if their is work-for-pay involved. By senior year - it becomes really noticeable - seniors tend to become more mellow, and more supportive of each other and other people.

[SSScout]

In my stint as a Chaplain at the '05 Jamboree, one of my duties was as a"welcomer" at the Relationship Tent. Here were displays from various organizations with "Relationships" to BSA: Lions Club, American Legion, and such, and many of the faiths that charter Scout units. Scouts at the Jamboree could earn a Rocker patch named "Duty to God" for their Jambo patch. One of the requirements for that rocker was to visit the display of your faith and speak to the reps there. If your faith did not have a display there, speak to the Chaplain on duty about your DtG. I signed off on many Scouts DtG page, because they came from small unafiliated churches or synagogues. And some bigger denominations that had no display (presbyterian, frinstance). I also spoke to a number of Scouts who sought to earn their rocker, but said they "weren't sure about that God stuff" . If the other Chaplains had a similar experience, we figure there were about 350 Scouts "not sure" out of the 43,000 in attendance at the Jambo. That's a respectable number.

BSA defines one of the requirements of membership to be a belief in a "greater power", sometimes called "God". I for one will not "call out" someone who is already a Scout but has doubts or questions. I agree with the previous posters about not trying to CONVINCE the Scout of anything. That is not my role or duty. I will listen. I will share my beliefs if so asked. But I will not accuse or defame.

I hope that my (and other Scouters') demonstrated adherance to the axioms of the SPromise and SLaw, and the chance to view and marvel at God's creation (the OUT in Scout!) would help lead the Scout to see the profit of belief, whatever form that belief may take. See BP's original counsel about Scouting and religion, I'll not quote it again here.

I see nothing wrong with encouraging an open mind and an exploration of the many ways we have developed to worship and honor the Creator. If one has no family tradition to either accept or rebel against, then one is left to poke around until something seems right. And there are lots of proselytizers and evangelizers out there for the maturing Scout to listen to and consider; by role, the neighborhood Scout leader should not be one of them.

The "unsure" Scout will eventually settle in to a faith or decide he can no longer belong to such an association as the BSA. Such a "seeker" is, I find, usually too honest with himself to be so hypocritical as to deny his disbelief (if it developes to that) so as to continue in Scouting. His alternative is to declare himself and face the consequences of trying to fight to remain in Scouting, which will then (unfortunately) boot out the disbeliever. But it ain't for me to be that booter.

 

I signed the unsure Scout's DtG page, as he had done it as he saw fit. His duty, right then, was to question. I did not hear of any of my fellow Chaplains doing differently.

 

We Quakers have a saying, based on a quote from George Fox. We counsel one should "wear thy sword as long as thou canst". If you are questioning an action (or belief) you are doing (or not doing), then you must continue your present path until you have no other choice in good conscience.

 

YiS&C

 

[Beavah]

Yah, you're never goin' to get a lad to not see the world in terms of right and wrong, eh?

 

I think da lad doth protest too much.

 

The BSA membership rule has to do with whether you have something as "God" to whom/which you owe a duty. On my honor and all that.

 

Agnostics by the strict definition, or at least the one the BSA means, aren't still searching, eh? They've come to a conclusion. There's nothing knowable about God, and nothing to which they owe any duty.

 

That's why there's a difference between undecided/searchin' and being a convinced agnostic. All yeh did for the boy was explain that where he's at doesn't fit the definition, so he's usin' the word improperly. Nuthin' wrong with that.

 

 

Beavah

 

[BrentAllen]

Lisa,

Tough situation. In my short tenure as SM, I haven't had anything remotely related come up. But I'll offer how I think I would handle it.

 

I would probably start with the topic that Scouting has the idea that to be the best kind of citizen, one has to believe in a higher power, that we serve a higher authority. Hopefully I would be able to explain that in a way he would understand.

 

If that was successful, I would talk about faith. Not about a particular religion, but just about what faith is (as opposed to being able to prove something, as in scientifically). I was taught that faith is like a muscle, and needs to be developed and built up over time. That most of us have times of doubt in our faith. The BSA isn't in the business of kicking boys out for having doubts about their faith. That's not what we are about.

 

This is, however, different from a situation where someone emphatically denies there is a god or higher power. That person would be an atheist, and the BSA does not allow atheists to become members. That is BSA policy. Hopefully, he would see the difference between the situations and see that we aren't being hypocritical.

 

[evmori]

Interesting question.

 

I would have a chat with the Scout then with mom & dad. I would want a better perspective regarding where the Scout is coming from.

[Eamonn]

Most people who have ever worked with teenagers know what a tough time they are going through.

At this age they have a very strong sense of what is right and what is wrong. Some might call this Justice?

They are experimenting, trying new ideas, new ways of doing and looking at things and maybe some things that the shouldn't.

Handing the Lad the policy as it is written? Will and has in the cases I've had to deal with only makes things worse. The teenager sees it as not being fair and it ends up being like a red flag to a bull.

Most of the young adults that I have worked with in this area are not so much really questioning if there is or isn't a higher power. They seem more concerned about the rites and ceremonies that churches have. Comments like "I don't need to go to church to pray" are common.

But if the Lad that Lisabob is talking about doesn't attend a church, he might not be questioning the rites and ceremonies. He might be questioning if there really is a higher power?

If I were the adult that the Lad came too. I think I'd be very honest. I'd explain that when I was about his age, I went through very much what he is going through. In my case I joined the Young Socialists Party and was going to save the world! I'd strongly recommend to the Lad that before he decides that he really is agnostic that he takes the time to look at other religions and faiths.

Most of the young people who have come to me feel that they have been force fed Christianity and the Bible and really had no choice in what religion they have.

While he is searching for and looking at different religions, I really don't think the A word is the right word.

Eamonn.

[Lisabob]

I want to thank you all for your input. It has been very helpful to me, and I will share it with other leaders too. And I'm glad to see that pretty much everyone responded in measured ways that give the scout the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

[eghiglie]

I don't think its possible to explain policy to a teenager, recall that they are just getting used to society and question a lot of things. School makes it worse by spending lots of time explaining the Code of Conduct.

 

We can all think of examples in which these questions were valid and led to change. History is full of change brought on by questions.

 

However, the BSA is a provate organization with its own rules for membership. If the boy persists in the comments/actions get together with him and his folks and explain the rules for being a Scout. Beleiving in God is a major one!

 

Don't kick him out, don't threaten him, just explain it to the family and let them decide.

 

Right now is a tough time for all of us, many people ask how can God let people lose their jobs and homes. Let a preacher explain this.

 

A boy in my Troop had both his parents lose jobs, the home was foreclosed on and they had to move in with the grandparents who are divorcing. His grades went from B to F. He blamed God for all these problems and told everyone in the Troop that God didn't exist.

 

The boy was depressed and way beyond my skills to help, the youth minister at my church visited them and is helping them with weekly visits. He still comes to Troop meetings and is getting back on track.

 

My apologies for rambling on.

 

[Scoutfish]

This may be a response soo late that it may not even matter, but from my experience with a Jr Squad member of our fire dept....

 

Sometimes these issues are nothing more than problems with the religion his parents "chose for him" or forced upon him.

 

My particular Jr member was having doubts about organized religion in general, because his stidies, found out that the Sabbath is actually on Saturday . So he asked his parents, his Sunday School teacher and his preacher why we hold fast to the notion that "When God says something,it is not questionable, not to be tested nor taken lightly", yet we changed the Sabbath after reading that God declared the seventh ( Saturday by our calendar week)day a day of rest and to be the sabbath."

(This is from studies of Constantine)

 

The isuue had less to do with religion than to do with the "Don't you question what we say" attitude of the church and his parents.

 

This youth was taught to "seek out God's word and the truth in it", yet when he found something he did not understand,and asked for closure on it, he was basically admonished and attacked.

 

That kind of stuff does make you question the integrity of your parents, people, organized religion and religion in general.

 

The youth in question has since graduated school, grown up, gotten married and has two children of his own. He changed religions from the one his parents followed and is actually a youth minister himself that has the respect of his church and many from other churches and the surrounding area.

 

He doesn't have any "questions , issues , or problems with religion any more. Of course, it seems he didn't have problems with religion before, but the people pushing that religion.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Scoutfish]

As far as the word "agnostic" itself....

I would be les concerned with the actual dictionary defined meaning of the word that what the youth understood it to mean. Find out exactkly what he thinks it means, then work from there. He may be misunderstanding or completely using the wrong word from what he actually feels!

 

Kinda like the difference between respect and blind loyalty.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)