Prank at Scout camp ended 1 life, changed 3 others

[Hal_Crawford]

760:

From what I recall from the Wilderness First Aid course I took last year, neither rubbing alcohol nor hydrogen peroxide are considered useful antiseptics for wound treatment nowadays. Alcohol pads are ok for cleaning skin around a wound or prior to giving an injection (which most of us aren't qualified to do) but that is about it.

[tonys]

I'm new to posting but been reading for some time I say education is the only way to prevent this type of thing. I've seen liquid fuel stoves spill raw gas when they were being lit before they were up to temp. I've seen propane ignite when a young scout tried to unhook a stove from a tree that had a lantern on top. If you ask new scouts what they like on camp outs most will mention fire close to the top of their list.so even though this was horse play of a sort accidents happen I try to teach fire safety. but the only thing we as adults can do is keep a close eye on the boys when fire is involved,while trying not to be to obvious.

[fleetfootedfox]

Yeah, true, normally all you'll need is the pads that are pre-soaked with some kind of disinfectant.

 

The eduction angle is something to think about, but along those lines also setting a good example.

 

The current policy is on: http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/Resources/policyonchemicalfuels.aspx

 

It clearly states: "The use of liquid fuels for starting any type of fire is prohibited, including lighting damp wood, charcoal and ceremonial campfires."

 

That has not prevented scouters from doing this where I live. At summer camp where I went last year they had a huge bonfire started with many gallons of kerosene. When they lit it, it was almost like a bomb going off. It was a little scary.

 

I have also seen kerosene used for torches, sometimes so soaked that they are dripping flaming droplets. Again, kind of scary.

 

We have come a long way from the days when boy scouts started their fires by rubbing two sticks together. Wow factor seems to be more important than safety.

[Eagle732]

Does this discussion apply to alcohol based hand sanitizer?

[SSScout]

"Emma's Weight Loss program" (popup)

 

I have always thuht the reason for all safety training is to get folks to think "WHAT IF" and learn from OTHER peoples mistakes.

 

The guidelines in G2SS are full of the results of other people's accidents and lots of 'what if' exercises.

It's the Scouters job to make the Scout think about the 'what ifs'.

 

Camporee camp fire set up by the OA. Someone thought that (because it was a BIG camporee),

two campfires would be good, lots of light, lots of space, big stage space. Lots of acts on the ticket. Several Scouters finally convinced the OA MC that ONE fire would be sufficient. Then someone noticed, NO WATER BUCKETS OR SHOVELS. Mucho running around to collect the necessary requisites. As it happened, the fire was quite impressive, built with many oak pallets. It also provided some of it's tenders with first degree burns as they attempted to limit it's spread in the grass that the OA planners also neglected to clear from the site.

Many of the skits were entertaining.

There was a long debriefing afterward.

 

[SctDad]

This is truely a tragic incident. I hope the families are able to get through the best that they can.

 

Lets look at this in one aspect. The alcohol based hand cleaner IS Flamable. There have been many incidents to prove this, and this is one of them. I disagree with the constant use of the hand sanitizer. It not only kills the bad germs but it also kills the ones that we need. When the hand sanitizer came out, it was not meant to replace hand washing totally, but it was meant as a TEMPORARY fix to an immediate need. I think that we should all promote the use of soap and water to wash our hand. It worked for decades. I mean there is nothing wrong with meeeeeeee eeee ee e. Except for that slight tick (just kidding)

 

Boys will be boys. They love to play with fire, throw things, and break stuff. This event was a tragedy. Instead of completely damaging this young mans life, who will have to live with this already, look at it as he is now a good person to try to use as a fire safety instructor if he is able to handle it mentally. Learn from this event, and lets find out how we can prevent this in the future.

 

Me personally, I would say that we need keep the handsanitizer out of camp. We have soap and water.

[DeanRx]

This is truely a tragic event and underscores the reason training and adult oversight are paramount to scouting activities. I hope all involved can find some peace in time from this event. Not sure what prosecuting the young man will accomplish. Then again, I'm not the grieving family, so who's to judge.

 

As for the hand sanitizer debate. While I agree that soap and water will do the job and should be encouraged, lets not lay the blame on the 'fuel' used in this incident.

 

If this tragedy had occured because the young leader flipped his car on the way to camp with scouts riding with him, would we be calling for everyone to use horse and buggy to get to camp? After all they worked so well for so many years and no flamable liquids involved (unless you count the manure). Additionally, if this tragedy came about because of a careless act on a range, does that mean BSA should change the guidelines to firearms for future generations of scouters? I doubt it.

 

This comes down to TWO things: 1) I poor decision by someone that was supposed to know better and be setting the example and 2) Lack of appropriate adult supervision / oversight. The truth is this poor Eagle is probably a really ggod kid and the majority of his life he acts in a responsible manner, likely better than most peers his age, but just this one slip...

 

Doesn't matter if he was tossing a baseball bat into the air and it accidentally hit the other scout on the head and killed him - it was a moment of bad judgement in which fate dealt a superior bad hand for his poor decision. That's sad and he has to live with the outcome (whether its fair or not) for the rest of his days.

 

Reminds me of when I was learning to drive and my father kept reminding me, "You only get one chance to be in a fatal accident." I got fed up with hearing it and finally said, "I think your just trying to scare me when I drive, Dad." His reply, "Damn right I am... better scared and alive than foolishly brave and dead." His point - it only takes one instant of inattention to undo years of safe driving and wearing seatbelts.

 

Bottom line - people (not just young adults - but they are more prone to it) make bad choices / decisions all the time. I would venture to guess that the majority of the time people get away with the poor choice, be it speeding, playing with fire, cheating on a spouse, doing drugs, etc... The reason for training and safety protocol isn't for the majority of times that we act foolish and nothing horrible comes of it. Its there because the POTENTIAL for a horrible outcome is greatly increased because of the choice.

 

If its a 1 in 1000 chance, the odds are not very high. Unfortunately, there are those times that the 1 in 1000 comes up on the first roll of the dice. Thats when families are left to pick up the pieces and the only ones that are able to learn from the mistake are those that by some act of God (or fate) were standing just far away from the incident to not be seriously hurt.

 

I would hesitate to crucify the scouts involved, nor would I suggest a major change to any BSA fire safety stance. Other than maybe this...

 

It is imparitive that ALL scouters, regardless of age, rank, tenure, or maturity level are trained to SPEAK UP when they observe or are about to observe an unsafe act (of any type). I'd bet there were several (if not all) the scouts standing around the "circle of fire" that in their guts were thinking, "Hey, this really isn't a good idea.... someone could get hurt...." but because it was a "leader" doing it and they likely didn't want to be called out as a sissy or a kill-joy they failed to speak up. That silent peer-pressure can be a killer. Make our scouts aware of this.

[SctDad]

Dean,

 

I agree with what you you said. I was just mentioning that there are things that we use these days that have changed scouting from what it was when we in the ranks.

[RememberSchiff]

Well said DeanRx.

 

In "teaching safety", we have to develop awareness -"Am I safe? Are my friends safe? Is the situation safe?" "Think Safety" is a very difficult skill to develop. Kids consider themselves immune to harm. And as for adults well the plethora of excuses is why there are for many accident investigation boards.

 

Recognize the possible dangers. Should we be doing this? What can go wrong here? Where will the fire go? Where will the knife go if I slip? Is the pot hot? Safety is not just about rules and guidelines, it is about consequences.

 

If the situation is not safe, STOP, SPEAK UP LOUD and CLEAR. Granted this can be hard, particularly if an older scout or adult is the culprit.

 

If you cannot fix the safety issue don't become a victim, WALK AWAY to safety and COMMUNICATE to a responsible adult. Walking away is harder as our curiosity takes over, but our attendance implies consent and encourages the unsafe act - WALK AWAY and COMMUNICATE. Let your scouts know you will support them as I have done on unsafe occasions at summer camp.

 

As scout leaders, I do not believe we should shield our scouts from all harm by taking away knives, matches, swimming...rather teach them (again and again) how to safely handle those situations and then keep an eye on each other - safety is everyone's responsibility.

 

My $0.02

[RememberSchiff]

Rest in Peace Sean. May 16, 1991 - July 10, 2008

 

http://www.seanwhitleymemorialfund.org/pics.html

[Smithgall]

I am late reading this but i will be sending the link to my 12 year old son. As an ASM this is my worst nightmare. As a unrelated party i see it as a terrible accident that was tragic but not criminal. This one of those situations where its avoidable only if you can count on every boy to do the right thing at all times. it goes to show we should always be safety minded and never take for granted that an older boy knows better and only the younger boys need safety talks.