help with Eagle project

[cheffy]

I'm reaching out to the forum here for some help locating a part for a project.

My sons project was to build a fire pit with benches behind the church. The pit opeing is 48". The local fire chief said it needed a spark screen. Son located a person to make one since the size was not standard. A price was agreed on and my son raised just enough funds to cover the cost(600.00). Now that it's time to order the screen the guy is changing his tune and wants another $225.00 and says that the screen needs to be a different size than what was quoted. He has hung up on my son twice now when he has tried to reason with this guy. My son does have all the e mails in which they discuss the screen but I don't think this guy is going to honor the deal. I going to maybe have one of our ASM's who is a lawyer call the guy.

 

Request. Does anybody know where we can get a screen that would fit a 48" opening pit. we have checked locally and no one makes them.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Bob White]

One of the important skills for leadership that an Eagle project can help to develop is the ability to problem solve. Thesituation that your son has encountered is a perfect example of the kinds of things that people run into all the time when what they "want" or what they "conceptualize" is not readily available in the real world. helping the scout learn ways to approach these kninds of planning hurdles is what the Eagle project and the leadership training of the BSA is all about, and for dad to get on-line and ask for others to solve the scout's problem really does not teach the scout anything...does it?

 

If I were coaching the scout I would walk him through the problem solving steps. One important step is to consider all options.

 

One option for instance would be that if you cannot find a screen to fit the fire pit then consider building a fire pit that fits the screen you can find. It would seem to me that the cost savings of making the pit just a little smaller far outweigh the gain of having a slightly larger pit and a much higher cost for a custom made screen.

 

Good leaders learn to prioritize the elements of a project. Is it more important to have a 48" fire pit or to have a firepit that meets the local codes and is cost effective?

 

A 40" fire screen is readlily available at major home centers and easily found on-line.

 

But do not focus on solving the problem for the scout, but rather on helping the scout learn to think through problems and find solutions. Remember the actual goal of the project is not to build a fire pit...but to build a leader.

[Beavah]

Yah, ditto BobWhite, eh?

 

Seems to me the young Eagle candidate should be able to use Google as well, eh? A simple search on "custom fire pit spark screen" does get hits.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori]

Yup BW is on the right track! Some other possible sources would be the local high school metal shop teacher or the metalwork MB counselors in your area.

[gcnphkr]

Yep. BW is right. Part of leadership is handling things when they no long go as planned. Time to change the plan. The idea of going to a metal shop teacher is great. Learning to shape and weld metal may be in your son's future. In any case, help him think it through, but you need to let him work it out.

 

Your bringing a lawyer in will not solve the problem. That just teaches him that parents will bail him out when things get a little difficult.

[cheffy]

So what everyone is saying is that because this guy basically broke a contract that my son should suck it up and use it as a learning experience.

I'm sure if this was a non-Eagle situation and it was your business or job the answers would be different.

Thanks for nothing.

 

 

[asm 411]

Cheffy,

 

Hold on a moment. I think that the choices presented to you are just that choices. You can choose to pursue the course of action in a court room but what are the consequences of such a choice? It may take months or longer to get it resolved. Is it worth delaying the project over some idiot? The cost involved making it a legal matter may vary well out strip the benefit. Is your son going to log the hours and cost associated with this in his Eagle project. Where will he get the money to pay the lawyer? Or he could just note that the first approach did not work out and he weighed the options.

 

Even if you win the case do you think this guy is going to deliver a top quality product in a timely maner? Litigation over $225 difference does not seem like a good economic solution.

 

 

I don't think Scouters generally think in terms of litigation. I think most Scouters find legal matters anti-thrify (not really a word but you get the point). Perhaps sitting down and making a list of pros and cons with your son and the deciding if litigation makes sense would be the best choice. If this was a project I was working on I certainly would do that.

 

The choice is your son's to make. Guide him the best way you see fit.

 

Lincoln

[Buffalo Skipper]

Cheffy,

I think what everyone is saying is that your son needs to find a solution which is practical for his Eagle project. Pursuing legal avenues is one option, but it that the most effective way of completing his project? My guess would be no, but I am not a lawyer.

I believe that the forum members are suggesting easier ways for you son to follow through and complete his project. Every battle is not worth fighting. Eagle projects are about problem solving, not litigation.

 

I have a similar situation regarding Sea Scout ships with which I am working. A quote from one yard on hauling the boat was given, but a month later a rediculously different price is on the table, with the boat sitting at the dock (wracking up a daily transient fee...). Is it worth it to fight for original quote or just find another yard to haul the boat. Probably the latter, since it is costing them every day the boat sits there.

 

I wish your son all the best and I hope he finds a solution which reflects favorably on his leadership and service.

[Bob White]

You have misunderstood what I posted Cheffy.

 

I will try to be more clear.

Legal retribution is not a leadership skill.

Sicking an attorney on a vendor does not teach leadership nor does it teach the scout how to problem solve. It only teaches him to turn to others to solve problems for him, be it a lawyer sueing a vendor or a dad searching for answers for him on an internet forum.

 

The point of my post is that the purpose of the project is for the scout to apply leadership skills so that he can understand them better and so that he can lead a project to completion.

 

It is his project and not yours. Your proposed solution of hiring a lawyer over this situation shows that you do not understand leadership skills or problem solving, or the fact that this is not YOUR project.

 

Your son needs a project coach/mentor who has a better grasp of project planning and leadership skills then you are demonstrating in either your first or last post.

 

"I'm sure if this was a non-Eagle situation and it was your business or job the answers would be different."

 

This last quote of yours proves my point. As a business owner who deals with hundreds of vendors I can assure you that people drop the ball all the time. If I set my lawyer upon every vendor who screwed up I would have no time to serve my clients.

 

My job is not legal retribution. My job is to serve the client. That means when other people make mistakes it is my job and my company's job to solve the problem and take care of the client, not to sue everyone who makes a mistake.

 

The Eagle candidate's job is to resolve the problems that arise and get the job done, not to threaten people with legal action. You are teaching your son poor planning and leadership skills, which as a parent is your right, if that is what you wish to do. But you are not helping him to successfully lead a project or to understand and apply the skills of scouting.

[evmori]

Sorry if we didn't tell you what you wanted to hear cheffy. We told you what we thought the best course of action would be. Like BW posted, litigation isn't a leadership skill! Lawsuits for small amounts like this are what ties up our courts!

 

Get the screen somewhere & never use or recommend this gentleman to anyone in the future! Sometimes there is nothing you can do about a**holes! And since, at least from what I read, there is no signed contract, you could likely lose a lawsuit!

 

And what does suing this guy teach your son? Does it teach him a way to find an answer to the problem? No. It teaches him to sue someone instead of finding a practical solution 1st. If there is not practical solution, then maybe legal recourse is a solution.

 

Again, sorry we didn't tell you what you wanted to hear!

[Beavah]

Yah, first off I don't reckon cheffy has standing to bring a suit, eh? And proceedin' solo on such a suit would be a very, very, very bad idea.

 

The choice to bring a suit should be the beneficiary of the project. And I really don't reckon most NFPs and churches want to be in small claims court over a change of bids. Kinda wrecks their goodwill as NFPs and churches. Same with da BSA, eh?

 

As close as I can tell, this sort of thing is pretty normal in building contracting. Yeh get a preliminary quote, but then when the contractor actually looks at the thing it's different, or the cost of materials has gone up or whatnot.

 

Regardless, it's a pretty ordinary snag for an Eagle Scout leadership project. Something that we expect an Eagle Scout to be able to handle. Sorry, cheffy, in my neck of da woods there are people who would not sign off on the project as being the boy's own work if you stepped in and bailed him out of this. You and the ASM don't want to compromise your son's Eagle project.

 

Let your son get frustrated, get angry, and work through it himself. He will be so proud, and you even prouder, when he succeeds that way. Dat's bein' a true Eagle Scout, and Eagle Scout dad.

 

Beavah

 

[Vicki]

>So what everyone is saying is that because this guy basically broke a contract that my son should suck it up and use it as a learning experience.

I'm sure if this was a non-Eagle situation and it was your business or job the answers would be different. >

 

Hmmm, no, I think my answer would be exactly the same in either situation. For $225 I am not going to get a lawyer involved, especially if the contract is verbal (old saw: verbal contracts are worth the paper they're printed on). Even if the friend is willing to do it, I think it's the wrong lesson. If a vendor has hung up on me twice, I'm done. This isn't about "winning", it's about getting the job/project done.

 

Now, it is possible that the vendor is hanging up on your son because he doesn't want to deal with "a kid." I'm going to buck the trend here and suggest that I would talk to Eagle candidate, ask if he thinks that's the situation and, if so, offer to call the individual myself - as SM(?), to explain the importance of commitments and the civic lessons learned by Eagle participants on their road to adulthood. In the real world, situations get escalated all the time. But if Eagle candidate says no, then no is the answer. And if you can't do it without smoke blowing out of your ears over the rude way this jerk has treated your son, then I'd just let it go.

 

But I think the suggestions to revisit the size of the pit, etc., are the better route.

 

Vicki

 

[CalicoPenn]

In the "real world" - when someone hits a snag, the reaction of bosses isn't generally "you figure it out, is part of problem solving and you need to learn how to solve problems", unless they're a really bad boss. The reaction is "lets see if someone else can help with a solution; or maybe we need to bring in the legal eagles for help; or maybe someone has an idea for a different supplier".

 

Despite some of the advice being given, Eagle Scout candidates shouldn't be expected to come up with all of the answers themselves. The mark of a true leader, and of a great leader, is the ability to say "I'm stuck and I NEED HELP". It appears to me that your son is at the "I'm stuck and I need help" stage and had reached out to people in his life for ideas, who, in turn, have reached out to here.

 

Some questions before you bring in a legal eagle for help - is there a signed contract or is there a proposal with estimated pricing. If there is a signed contract for a design with a set price, use the resource of the ASM to help get the contract enforced (though it should be your son working with this resource, rather than you - your role was to help find that resource, which you've done). The ASM is likely to do it pro-bono. Many times, just a call or letter from an attorney is enough to get people to take action - let the attorney make any threats to report the vendor to the better business bureau, or to suggest that many people will know that the vendor is not an honorable business person. Then count the ASM's time as part of the project time put in by volunteers. If there is no signed contract, then the ASM might be able to convince the vendor to agree to do the work per the proposal (especially if your son can show by an e-mail trail that the vendor agreed to the terms "verbally" as it were), or s/he might suggest that there is no point in pursuing this person, in which case you need other resources.

 

One suggestion was to change the size of the fire pit itself so that you can use a screen size that is more readily available without being custom built. If the sponsoring organization agrees to this, then it's worth pursuing. BUt if they specifically need a 48" (inside diameter??" fire pit for some reason, then more creativity is needed.

 

Check with the Fire Chief - maybe he knows some sources of a custom metal worker, beyond the vendor you already found. I'm not sure where you live, but an internet search may lead you to other ornamental steel/iron workers in your area - maybe in the next county over. Check with local home or commercial builders - they may have contacts that don't advertise in the Yellow Pages, but do advertise in trade publications that might be able to do something/ Any blacksmiths in your area? Doesn't need to be someone who does it full time, could be someone who does it as a re-enactor, or is a hobbyist. They may be able to put something together that would work, and some may do it for the cost of materials and a little bit for labor just for the challenge to see if they can do it (and add to their repertoire of products).

[Stosh]

I have a boy that just had his Eagle project dumped by the sponsor. They wanted a gazebo made of pine, then they wanted it made of cedar (after the boy priced out pine, back to square 1) then they only wanted it about half the size of the original plan, finally they said they didn't want the gazebo built at all.

 

Solution for my boy? Get another project and start all over, record the effort of the first project because everything he did on it was part of his showing leadership, and his biggest leadership decision was the cutting of one's losses and moving on to something that will actually produce results.

 

Stosh

[anarchist]

cheffy,

 

ouch why the hostility? These folks might not have given you what you wanted (we rarely do) but they tried to help you solve your scout's issue.

 

First, legal route is a lost cause...do you really want to try to enforce an unwritten (no signatures) contract?

lesson to Eagle should be "when given a lemon...try to make lemonaid" ...not stomp the lemon to mush. I am not a lawyer no do I play one on TV but I do engage them frequently, in my line of work, and even when I win...I really do not win...just spend more money than it was truly worth.

 

Depending on the fire regulations in your neck of the woods a fire screen might only be needed during "fire ban conditions" ... that said, here in Virginia, some times a quarter inch screen opening is good, some times it is not...In many Virginia jurisdictions you can use a screen on an above ground burn barrel but not on a ground fire (go figure) and sometimes any burning whatever (even charcoal) is prohibited...so someone needs to really check the fire codes. Would hate for the pain of finding a spark screen to prove to be for naught.

 

now, practically speaking if you zero in on the screen opening size... once you have that, the rest is just busy work.

your Eagle (not you) will need to track down the screen material...(local steel or welding supply shop or internet), while doing this he could call around to local high schools who have old fashioned shop classes or perhaps a trade school with welding classes. Or perhaps an auto body shop, steel stair and railing installer, Heck he could even rent an electric welder and do it himself ( it is not rocket science and it is kinda fun...I weld on my old farm gear and it ain' "purdy" but it works and I haven had a shop class in 40 years.

 

Just be cause the pit is round..the screen does not have to be- the screen could be square and free standing...even though I am not a designer, I could draw up 3 or 4 variations using some angle iron to make a box frame, spot weld screen sections on to it, heck even add a couple of pin hinges and a handle so you could open a section to feed the fire... this is what the project is about...planning, executing and solving problems that crop up..not learning the ropes of small claims court.

 

take a deep breath, relax then point your scout and his eagle adviser in a different direction.

 

life is short, don't waste it with turkeys!

 

anarchist