Older scouts

[BulldogBlitz]

We've got a patrol of older scouts - 15, 16, 17. They are Star and Life (recently awarded Life). They begrudgingly come to meetings at a decent clip; however, they sit off in the corner and make snide comments during the meeting. Their attention span is non-existent. I can tell they have been coddled, I can see the egg shells all around them. In talking with another leader tonight, I got most of the scoop.

 

They are bored out of their minds. They were scattered in the troop, and when there was a large influx of new members, the adult leaders thought it best to get these older guys in their own patrol. One recent BOR, one of the scouts was asked what he thought about his patrol. He explained that he had some ideas about doing things, on their own, on their level of interest - no details were given. That BOR was 6 weeks ago, nothing has been done to this point.

 

Tonight, the new SM stood to speak. It was obvious by the (very quiet) comments, they don't care for the new approach (not that they cared for the other SM either). It seems to me that these scouts are hanging on by a thread (or are tied on to that thread by their parents). Any guidance for inspiring these scouts who have much vested time in the program?

[Bob White]

Who in the troop is giving them guidance? What program has been developed in the troop for them? What responsibilities do they have at troop meetings? Who is helping them to succeed at it. It would seem they are not following any program because they are not being led.

[Lisabob]

New SM needs to meet with the patrol - not with a bunch of other adults on the spot, though perhaps one or two within hearing distance. Have an honest conversation with them. What do they want? Why are they still there, if they're so bored? What would be fun for them?

 

Maybe past SMs have not given them enough leeway to do much exciting stuff. Maybe they haven't really approached the situation with a positive attitude and haven't brainstormed what "cool" would be for them. You might need to encourage them to think bigger, and maybe help them lay out a plan for a couple of patrol-based activities. Let them have a little (clean) fun and adventure again. Sometimes I've noticed that mid-teens are easily stuck in a rut. They know what they've done in the past and they're good at thinking up reasons why they can't (usually some adult won't let them) do anything really different. They're also sometimes afraid of putting ideas out there for risk of not being supported by the adults or the group - better to complain about being bored than have the rug pulled out from under a cool idea. So you might need to do a little convincing that you really want to help them reach a little.

 

But the exchange would be that I'd also lay out clear expectations of them, in terms of what I want them to do at meetings. Give them something meaningful and specific to do, maybe something different from the younger scouts, and expect great results. Don't let them cop out with just sitting on the sidelines snickering. Does your troop need new gear? Maybe a new place to camp? Put them in charge of researching the options instead of the adults doing this for the troop. Bring in a pile of good catalogs and Backpacker type gear guides one meeting and ask them to make suggestions. I haven't met guys yet who didn't drool over gear guides (the stuff, mind you!).

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, this might be an interestin' example of how patrol method can be done poorly, eh?

 

"when there was a large influx of new members, the adult leaders thought it best to get these older guys in their own patrol"

 

Troop seems like it might have taken its best resources and most long-time members and rather than give 'em responsibility with new guys coming in, shunted 'em to the side. Maybe because the troop adults are better at handlin' middle school lads than understandin' high schoolers? Maybe because these boys were felt to be a poor influence? Or, quite possibly, because they like being adult-run, and so they don't have anything for these older, leadership-capable lads to do.

 

I think it's very very hard to keep older scouts in a troop if they don't have real, honest-to-goodness leadership roles. High adventure by itself usually fails. Boys crave respect and responsibility more than they crave adventure, eh? In fact, they probably go after adventure because it brings 'em respect and responsibility.

 

One at a time, your SM has to get to know each lad, not da group. And with each lad, figure out what role they can assume that gives 'em genuine responsibility and a chance to earn everyone's respect. Then put 'em in the role, and back away a bit.

 

B

 

[Stosh]

How about telling the boys to get up off their butts and do some leading instead of sitting around waiting for someone else to entertain them. Obviously the adults no longer entertain them to the level of their wishes and so it's boring. So instead of doing something about it, it's a lot easier to sit around and complain. As a new SM I would refocus my attention back on the new guys and train them with leadership skills so that when they get to be 15-16-17 they have the notion that maybe they're not going to be treated like Cub Scouts forever, and that if they wish to be entertained on an adult level they had better start doing it for themselves.

 

There's nothing worse than a group of parlor scouts sitting around whining about being bored. Give them a match and a blanket and tell them to go camping. Obviously any leadership development for these boys has not happened, and at that age with that attitude, I doubt whether any is going to develop before 18. Just do the normal thingy of getting the boys occupied with an Eagle project so they stay out of everyone's hair, they get their neato patch, nice party, and a great line on their resume AND best of all they no longer infect the rest of the troop with their negative attitude.

 

And as one final note, one can be assured these boys have NOT invested much of anything in the welfare of this unit so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

 

I have emphasized boy-led so long that none of my boys ever complain about being bored even when they are, because if it's boy-led and they're bored, they've got no one but themselves to blame for it and they know it. Once we got that settled, none of the boys are bored.

 

Stosh

[Gold Winger]

The older boys in my son's troop formed a venture patrol but couldn't come up with any ideas for things to do. Even with prompting there was nothing that caught their interest. I sat in on a meeting with them and their ASM was trying to draw them out. Basically he said, if you have an idea, tell us and we'll see if we can make it happen. Sailing the Carribean. Caving. Rafting. Hiking the AT. Nah, that was all lame, they just wanted to text each other and play video games. Sometimes you just gotta let them drop off the vine.

[click23]

Venture patrols can earn the varsity letter and activity pins, er venture letter and activity pins. Members of regular patrols cannot earn these, and for some boys that might be enough for them to become interested in it, for others it will result in a blank stare. More info on the letter and pins can be found in the Varsity Scout Guidebook.

[ScoutNut]

Venture Patrols are a patrol within a Boy Scout Troop.

 

Varsity Teams are a separate and distinct BSA unit with their own Charter Organization.

 

Troop Venture Patrol members can NOT wear Varsity insignia.

 

Troop Venture Patrol members also can not wear Venturing insignia.

 

[click23]

ScoutNut, venture patrols may earn the Venture letter and activity pins, but not the Denali Award. I know I have seen a better reference than this, but this is from the current "BOY SCOUT/VARSITY SCOUT UNIFORM INSPECTION SHEET OFFICIAL PLACEMENT OF INSIGNIA":

 

"Merit Badge Sash. If worn, merit badges are attached to front (and back, if needed) of sash. Venture/Varsity letter is attached at bottom front corner. Temporary insignia may be worn on back."

 

When I get home I will try to dig up more information on this.

[Eagle92]

In reference to venture patrols earning the Varsity/Venture Letter, reference to that is definately in the Insignia Control Guide. I also believe it's in the requirements book, and possibly in the Advancement Book.

 

Originally the letter was for varsity teams only, as there were no venture patrols at the time Varsity was created, only the Leadership Corps for older scouts. When they introduced the Venture patrol, they expanded the Letter to their use as well. They also created pins that are more scout related than sports related like Backpacking and Survival. The camp I worked at tried to implement an older scout program that incorporated earning some of these pins. But hardly anyone knew about the Varsity/Venture Letter, and wthere was zero interest.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Lisabob]

Ya know I could be wrong about how this would go over. But these pins remind me of the webelos activity pins! Why on earth would that be an appealing idea for a bunch of older teens? These guys need something to reach for, not what are likely to be perceived as "little kid" awards. That's why there's an emphasis on "high adventure" in a lot of venture patrols.

 

 

 

 

[Chucker75]

Interesting subject,

 

I think its all about expectations.

 

When our Troop runs into those problems (as I think all troops do form time to time) we have a little discussion at a court of honor with everyone. 1st. Scouting is a privilege, not a right. Simultaneously, in front of everyone, I tell the parents that if their son does not want to go to a scout meeting to keep him home, we dont want them at the meeting either, unless they are willing to be there. Then I tell the scouts that if they dont want to go to a meeting that they dont have to. They should tell their parents that Mr. Martin said they didnt have to go.

 

This is offset by a policy that says that states that we expect our High School age Scouts to make 2 meetings a month and one camp out and one outing a quarter unless they have a sports exemption. If they cannot participate at that level then they need to not be there. This also prevents a scout you havent seen in 4 years showing up 6 months before their 18th birthday and trying to pull off an Eagle Project.

 

The other expectation that we set is that you pay back the Troop. We dont have and older boy patrol (some troops call them green bar patrols). Our older scouts are active in their patrols and are responsible for bringing new scouts up to speed and helping to teach first year scouts the skills they need.

 

Many complaints of older boys are having to put up with new scouts (little kids). They are regularly reminded that they were little kids once too until some long suffering older scout showed them the ropes. Now as older scouts they need to pay back that investment of time. It also is pointed out to them that they cant very well expect the troop or the patrols to pony up time on an Eagle Project when the only thing that older scout has been doing for the last year is sitting in the corner offering sarcastic comments.

 

Tell them to get involved, or get out.

 

[allangr1024]

You mentioned a new scoutmaster. That could explain a lot. How did the transition go? How long from the time the old SM left to the time the new one came on board.

 

I took over as SM after a period of months in which the old SM was absent (he was promoted and no longer had time for it). It took its toll. I wonder if these guys have been given any guidance other than Form a new older scout patrol. The new SM really needs to get these guys doing something, high adventure or troop leadership projects or training of younger boys, and I bet they would like to camp on their own.

 

 

 

[Ohio_Scouter]

My advice is to form a high-adventure Venture Patrol for the older Scouts to focus on, and let them run it. This patrol plans a high adventure trip each year like canoeing, sailing, or backpacking at a National High Adventure Base or elsewhere, and during the rest of the year, the patrol plans activities in preparation for this high adventure trip. The Venture Patrol also gives the younger scouts something to look forward to as they grow older and more experienced. This seems to work quite well for us. It keeps the older boys interested, and it keeps them active in the Troop much longer to the point where the vast majority of them earn their Eagle rank.

[skeptic]

Unfortunately, unless you have one or two of them that is dynamic and a motivator of his peers, they will likely continue to sit there waiting to be spoon fed. I have gone through this more than once with older scouts. You put them in a venture patrol because they complain they are bored and cannot deal with the "kiddies". Then you sit down with them and try to get them to come up with ideas and then activate some. No one will take the ball and run; we are back to the symptom so common today, the fear of trying something new because it may fail or is too hard. We successfully started a venture crew a few years ago, because one senior scout had the ability to get them past the syndrome noted above. He went off to college, and it immediately self imploded and came apart. If you can somehow get past this "tell me how", or "do it for us", then they may get off the dime. But, it seems to take one of their own to break them out of the rut.

 

Good luck.