Scout Actions Splitting Unit

[OzarksOsage]

I'm seeking advice here, or perhaps support for my position.

 

Here's the story: Last summer, the troop with the same CO as my pack (and for which Im an ASM) went to an out-of-state summer camp. Four scouts from the troop trespassed on clearly-marked property of a neighboring religious retreat and stole a prayer flag. There were also incidents of destruction of camp property, a search that mobilized the entire camp to find one of the four scouts who was "lost" only to find out later that he was playing a game and was actually evading the searchers, bad attitudes, disrespect, etc. The behavior was so bad that the professionals at the other council contacted the professionals at our local council. The troop will not be attending that camp again. One of the four boys quit upon return from the trip. The Scoutmaster resigned. The troop committee was split on what to do with the other three boys involved, some wanting the other three scouts out of the unit. After much discussion, it was then decided that the three remaining must write letters of apology to the offended parties, be suspended from troop activities for four months, then, if they wished to return to the troop, they'd have to present an apology to the troop and then a condition of future involvement in activities was that a parent must also be present.

 

Ultimately, the troop leadership (without notifying the other members of the committee that helped create the requirements for remaining in the unit) watered down the stipulations. The boys were coerced into writing the letters of apology (if there was any true remorse, I dont think theyd have had to be coerced), but were back at troop meetings after two months, never had to apologize to the troop, and didn't have to have a parent present on outings.

 

Fast forward to this summer. At summer camp, two of the boys involved in the previous years unfortunate events were at it again. The third boy reportedly behaved himself, or at least did nothing criminal. Two of the boys went to another troops campsite and stole fuel. Later, when seen using the fuel, they insisted that they had brought it from home, and only later confessed when they discovered they had been found out.

 

Now the troop committee is meeting again. I say its high time the two boys are separated from our troop, and most of the committee agrees. The committee chair does not agree, and is pushing for another set of requirements the boys must meet in order to stay in the troop. Given past history, enforcement is unlikely to happen.

 

There is still hope for the troop, but not much, and its hinging on what consequences the boys will face. Good scouts have transferred from the troop, and the next few years of Cubs are looking for other units.

 

So, what does the wisdom out there say? Is it too harsh to remove those boys? If they do not leave, it will certainly do even more damage to the troop.

 

OzarksOsage

 

[FireKat]

Sorry to hear aabout your troubles. A few questions before any advice.

What about the boys' parents? How do they feel/act about what has happened?

Any input from district/council/camp personal?

Any signs of changing attitue with any of the boys?

What about the new scoutmaster?

Are the boys' parents on the committee?

How does the COR feel?

(added) What rank and age are the boys?(This message has been edited by firekat)

[Stosh]

I have always thought that boys like this would best be benefitted by a scout program, but when there is no learning, no development, no growth, no progress, it's time to cut them free before their actions ruin it for the other scouts, which seems to be the case with this unit.

 

One of the problems with discipline with these boys is that it has to be consistent and it has to be upheld. The boys pushed the envelop and the adults buckled. They are just as much to blame as the boys. Empty threats of discipline are just that, empty threats and the boys realized that, thus the second year of camp was on par with the first.

 

I had a boy (son of former SM) in my new troop that was responsible for many years of Webelos cross-overs going to other troops or not continuing on in scouting. When I became SM, I didn't back down, laid out the processes of how the troop would operate, and treated the boy with firm respect. The boy has turned into one of my best scouts. It's possible, difficult, but possible.

 

Remember, the boys are not taking responsibility for their actions and it's no one's fault but their own. If the committee is not holding them to this responsibility, then they are to be included in the blame. If one is not part of the solution, they must be part of the problem.

 

Stosh

[evmori]

This is easy.

 

Have your CO call your council & have them removed from the unit charter, inform them they are no longer members of you unit and give them your registration fee back. And tell them if they don't want to go along with this, charges will be pressed. There is no place in Scouting for this type of behavior.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Eagledad]

There needs to be an unbiased third party involved.

 

Barry

[Bob White]

What exactly does it take in the unit you serve for a scout to be sent home? Stealing and the inproper use of fuels evidently isn't enough.

 

While you are free to give the committee your opinion, it is the committees responsibilitiy to determine what to do with the scouts. You can either accept their decision or choose to leave the unit and possibly serve another unit. But along with investigating the scouts behavior it would seem appropriate for the committee to question the behavior of the troop leadership at these activities as well.

 

When a scout's behavior interferes with the deliver of the program or endangers his safety or the safety of others he should be returned to the supervision of his parents immediately.

 

 

[OzarksOsage]

FireKat:

 

To answer your questions:

 

What about the boys' parents? How do they feel/act about what has happened?

--One family is in denial, the other thinks there is some problem, but not necessarily with their son.

 

Any input from district/council/camp personal?

--Last year they asked me (I'm on the district committee) just what the heck was going on with the troop. This year, they've turned the problem back to us to resolve, which I think is standard procedure.

 

Any signs of changing attitue with any of the boys?

--None that I can see.

 

What about the new scoutmaster?

--He's a great guy, but does not hold the troop members to the level of personal accountability that I would. He does see now that last year's "punishment" wasn't taken to heart, and acknowledges that far too much time has been lost that should have been used teaching and mentoring the other boys. He's ready for the two to be gone.

 

Are the boys' parents on the committee?

--No. As parents they are welcome to attend any committee meeting, but rarely do, and are not involved enough to become registered scouters.

 

How does the COR feel?

--The COR wants the boys out because of potential damage to the CO's reputation and long-term health of the CO's scouting program, but has been advised that while she has the authority to remove an adult, that to remove a boy there really should be a majority vote of the committee. She has called for that vote to be taken at the next regular committee meeting.

 

What rank and age are the boys?

--I believe both are 15. One is Star, the other Life. The Life scout is four merit badges and project from Eagle.

 

OO

[Bob White]

"The COR wants the boys out because of potential damage to the CO's reputation and long-term health of the CO's scouting program, but has been advised that while she has the authority to remove an adult, that to remove a boy there really should be a majority vote of the committee."

 

No such requirement exists in the BSA.

[Gunny2862]

It looks to me like that Life Scout is a lot further away from Eagle than

that...

 

but, what standards have been communicated to him that he would have to meet to redeem his past behavior and move on?

 

And will you require him to meet those standards?

[John-in-KC]

Has SM visited with your UC or District Commish on this?

 

Have you visited with the District Advancement Chair? Made sure he understands that Scout Spirit (live the Oath and Law in daily life) clocks need rewinding for two boys?

 

As BW mentioned, when did the SM/CC find about the vandalism each time? This could be grounds to call Mom/Dad and have them come and get the kids and remove them from the camp.

 

Trust me, when Mom and Dad have to get time off to drive 2-4 hours (at $4 a gallon gas) for misbehavior, they tend to be upset with their children.

 

Why is the Committee involved in the first place? This is a program issue, and the SM should have his feet held to the fire for discipline management. He should be setting consequences which matter.

 

Why isn't the PLC involved? This is a good chance for them to learn that consequences of youth actions touch all of them... and they might be tougher on a peer than the adults are?

 

As much as you are looking at the boys, I'd be looking at how the whole Troop functions. The boys can and should be dealt with, and there are ways to deal with them. What I see more is that the left hand and the right hand of the adults are not working together. There are more issues than two boys here ... there's a whole matter of who does what to whom within your Troop, both in the youth program and the adult support. One part of the fix is a lot of training, for both the program folk and the committee folk.

[Bob White]

John in KC asks "Why is the Committee involved in the first place? This is a program issue, and the SM should have his feet held to the fire for discipline management. He should be setting consequences which matter.

 

Why isn't the PLC involved? This is a good chance for them to learn that consequences of youth actions touch all of them... and they might be tougher on a peer than the adults are?"

 

Because this is not a program issue! This is a membership and behavioral issue and the BSA policies and procedures specifically make this the responsibility of the adult leadership, including the committee and parents. However nothing requires the majority vote of the committee on such a matter.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[FireKat]

I think you have an answer to your question in that the CO want the boys out. The troop belongs to them and they have the right to say if someone can belong as this is a private organization.

As much as I hate to give up on troubled kids these may not be worth losing the whole troop over. By 15 you have lost much of the time to change a kid's behavior, especally if the parents are not supporting the change by acknowledging the problems. Time to clean house and get the troop back into shape. Good luck. ( you will fight the reputation for some years before you can re-earn the troops good name)

[CalicoPenn]

I'll echo what FireKat has said.

 

The COR wants the lads out - if she is speaking for the head of the CO (and that's likely the case if there is a concern about damage to the Chartering Organization's reputation) then there is no vote, no committee discussion. The COR tells the committee to remove the Scouts from the rolls, and the committee does it. If the committee refuses, the COR fires any leader that refuses, contacts the Council, tells the Council the lads and the removed adults are no longer members of the Unit, and reforms the committee and adult leadership as needed.

 

Calico

 

 

[Gonzo1]

I gotta agree with John-in-KC,

Sorry Bob White, but this is clearly a program matter as it relates to the Scout Oath and Law. No scout should be allowed to do what these boys have allegedly done. Stealing fuel, flags, vandalism, etc has no place in scouting. These boys are darn lucky they didn't get hauled off to jail and have the denying mommy and daddy bail them out and have to go to court.

 

I also agree with Stosh, it's these boys who can benefit most from scouting, but it doesn't seem to have worked in this case.

 

Too bad for these boys, hopefully, they'll get straightened out.

 

Gonzo

[Bob White]

You may agree with whomever you wish. That does not alter the fact that the BSA policies and procedures make adult leaders specifically responsible for yourth behavior not the PLC and, the guide to Safe Scouting clearly states that the Committee determines what to do with scouts with repeatitively poor behavior and not the Scoutmaster or assistant Scoutmasters.

 

 

Regardless of whom you agree with the unit is obligated to follow the BSA instructions on this matter.