Lying

[packsaddle]

I'm with House on this. Everyone lies. And every lie is fundamentally a self-deception of some sort, perhaps a self-betrayal. That is the lesson to be taught at as early an age as possible.

I agree with the idea that we are not in the 'punishment' business but rather teaching boys how to make the right decisions for the right reasons. In the case of the boys on the lighthouse....my first thought is - who could not predict the temptation of dropping something off the lighthouse? What if it was pennies? Rocks? Tomatoes? Feathers? Would this discussion be different for any of those?

 

I also agree with regard to spitting. It seems to be a Southern tradition, perhaps associated with the days when nearly every male chewed REAL chewing tobacco and many of the women dipped REAL snuff. Back then spitting was an art...I can remember well the skill with which my great aunt could launch a gossamer, brown, liquid trajectory into a coffee can across the room next to the stove. Sure there were misses but that just introduced me into the laws of probability and the approximately normal distribution. She also had that wonderful brown ring of dried snuff juice around her lips. Mmmmmmmm.

 

Today, it seems like local slouches with backward caps think it's cool to spit all the time. Who knows, maybe girls are attracted to it - they seem to reproduce successfully.

Come to think of it, I had several dates with a girl who dipped. And she was OooooKaaaay.

I can envision a good twangy country-western song...

You broke my heart,

When you knocked over my spitcup,

All over my pickup,

etc, etc.

[Eagledad]

>>Your focused on the lie when the focus should be on the inappropriate action by the group.

[Gold Winger]

"The sweater fits perfectly and will surely keep me warm. You put a lot effort into knitting it"

 

That's lying by avoiding the question.(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[Gags]

Do we know if the boys were told "no spitting off the top of the lighthouse"?

 

I could understand being upset about the spitting in general if there were other people around - but if it was a remote lighthouse, no other people around - I for one would not be able to resist the temptation - be it lighthouse or cliff (look up Cliffs of Mohr - now that's a cliff!).

 

Also, it's not clear if the boys said "No", or just stood there and didn't say anything for the first minute until the second ASM arrived. I know I was never too quick with begging for forgiveness when confronted by an angry adult - kids are "trained" (conditioned?) to usually wait until the adult finishes their tirade / lecture before entering their plea (it wasn't me, he did it, I was bored...)

 

Back briefly to my original point - no, we don't need to point out the obvious rules - "no stabbing the PL with the knife", "no yelling 'fire!' in a crowded theatre". But I think given the situation - boys alone at the top of a lighthouse - there's a large gray area of expected (and acceptable) behavior.

 

--Gags

[packsaddle]

It's possible that the boys, when confronted by the ASM, were stunned into silence. When I confront the boys in this unit about their misadventures, I sometimes get that stunned, 'deer-in-headlights' look. It isn't really lying or avoiding the issue, but rather a recognition of the truth of the matter combined with absence of an adaptive evolutionary response that's appropriate (and the deer get hit).

As a matter of fact, I still sometimes experience this myself during interrogations by my wife (with full knowledge that the headlights actually are on an approaching freight train).

 

This is an opportunity to teach the boys the practical truth of my newly-discovered rule for ethical behavior:

"If you think you can get away with it, don't."

[Gold Winger]

" Everyone lies. And every lie is fundamentally a self-deception of some sort, perhaps a self-betrayal."

 

What about when the Po-leese lie to the barricaded crimnimul and tell him that they are getting him a helicopter?

 

[DYB-Mike]

Gold Winger, I think that telling little white lies is better expressed as being tactful or diplomatic, something Im always trying to hammer home to my kids.

 

Sometimes family and friends see through some of my less than enthusiastic tactful responses but my retort to them is that when I do heap on the praise or compliments at least they know Im being sincere.

 

I do agree that there appears to be no real lying here, just a some hesitation (because of embarrassment at being called on it perhaps) in admission of guilt since the guilt was ultimately admitted on the spot. The spitting from the lighthouse is to me the real issue. Glad I wasnt walking around below!

 

YIS

Mike

 

[packsaddle]

Gold Winger, In that case it is explicitly a deception, by design, and an effective tactic. The police are contending with persons whose actions are profound deceptions and they make good use of deception during the apprehension.

 

I was addressing the destructive mistakes that good persons sometimes make when they aren't thinking clearly. And then we sometimes try to excuse those mistakes with more deceptions, hence that tangled web we hear about so often.

But you already knew what I meant, didn't you?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Gold Winger]

So it is okay for the government to lie as a "tactic" but not for others to do so. What happened to "lying is lying"?

[Stosh]

If one teaches it is ok to lie, then there should be no consequences for lying. If a person's word is not reliable, trustworthy, then it basically negates both the Oath and the Law. Kids aren't saavy enough to know when some adult thinks it's a white like or a "real" lie. Sounds like a setup to really rip the kids. They will figure out such hypocracy faster than one thinks.

 

If some gal asks a guy if she thinks a dress makes her butt look big, 1) she's picking a fight or 2) testing the honesty of her husband. Yep, I've answered that question. I didn't say the dress made her butt look big, I told her the extra 20 pounds made her butt look big. She quit asking me stupid questions after that.

 

If one is trying to build relationships based on a person's word, integrity, honesty and trustworthiness, lying in any form has no part in the process. If one teaches the art of telling "polite", "diplomatic", white lies, then don't be surprised when the boys lie. Worse yet, when an honest scout catches a leader lying, one's integrity as a leader basically tanks right then and there.

 

One can't teach scouting morals and character building based on lies.

Sorry, I can't buy into such deception and if one does teach such deception, I hope they don't reap what they sow.

 

And if someone asks me a question about something others would feel it necessary to lie about, just remember, not all questions have to be answered. I've dodged a lot of sticky situations simply by keeping silent.

 

Had the boys just kept quiet they would have received the same punishment had they confessed. They knew the ASM was gunning for somebody. If they lie, the consequences are worse. If they did do it and lied about it, one wouldn't know if the practice of telling various kinds of "minor", "polite", "diplomatic", "white" or whatever kinds of lies in the past were acceptable to the leadership that taught them.

 

I teach my boys to tell the truth. It's a simple process and eventually if taught well enough, one can actually trust and rely on what the boys say. It's kinda strange how that works, but it does work.

 

Stosh

[packsaddle]

Between honest persons, yes a lie is a lie. There is an assumption of honesty and honor that we make as a society and once violated, it is difficult, perhaps impossible, to regain that honor.

However, I agree with the moral relativism that you seem to be promoting. If the goal of the interaction is to catch the criminal, then yes I agree that it is OK to withold information, and even lie - to the criminal in order to apprehend him and stop the criminal activities...short of entrapment.

[dampcamper]

If these scouts really lied and not just with held their answers then they should be disciplined. It should reflect the crime and not only teach the scouts a lesson but benifit someone also. On spitting if they were spitting on someone then they were wrong but how many out there can honestly say they never spit off of something like a light house? Sometimes leaders forget that we are dealing with teenage boys and they will do the same things we did at their age, one more arguement for male leaders.

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums, dampcamper. I'd appreciate it if you'd send some of that dampness to North Georgia and NW South Carolina. We need it.

[DYB-Mike]

Folks,

 

It seems to me that were taking about two different things here.

 

If someone is asked a direct question, like did you spit from the top of the lighthouse, there is no diplomatic answer to that, just yes or no. To answer contrary to the truth in this instance is a lie, period, and should be addressed accordingly.

 

To give a diplomatic answer to the question do you like my dress is, in my humble opinion, not lying. A scout is courteous and kind. If one can couch an answer to that question in such a way as, for example, well, I really like that other dress you have better, you know, the (fill in the blank) one shows compassion and a concern for the other persons feelings. The person did not lie and say it was the most beautiful dress they ever saw, but neither did they cut the dress wearer down by telling the truth that the dress was hideous. At worst they could be accused of being evasive. A potential bonus might be that the dress wearer would take the hint and ditch the dress and be appreciative of the concern for their feelings by the absence of a blunt response.

 

And whos to say that the dress being hideous is the truth? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all.

 

YIS,

Mike

 

[Gold Winger]

"short of entrapment"

 

Why stop there?