What is a Scout?

[Eamonn]

I like to think we might all agree what we might like the young Lad who joins Scouts to become.

I also like to think that each and everyone of us is doing what we do to help each and every youth become a fine example of the Scout Oath and Law in action.

 

I however don't believe that every youth is born into being the fine example of the Scout Law and Oath.

Heck I have over 40 years of trying and I still at times mess up.

I love my son, more than life itself.

I'm proud of him and for all of my moaning, groaning and complaining, deep down I know that he is a good kid.

Scouts and Scouting has played a big part in helping make him the person that he is.

The adults who have been there for him, worked with him have been a great example for him.

The guys he has chosen over the years to hang with for the most part have been super nice kids.

But....

While these kids are super nice kids.

Most come from families that are fairly well off.

All are white.

Most seem to be fairly competitive.

They come from families who have strong values. In fact a good many of his friends parents are involved in Scouting.

 

We have come a very long way from when he was in first grade and his teacher Sister Lucille, would phone me almost every night with his "Sin Of The Day".

At one time I was sure that he was going to be the next Axe Murderer!

I had a little chat with Sister Lucille.

I explained that the problem was that she was seeing him as a child of God, who wasn't up to that standard, where as I was seeing him as a little Devil who was trying to reform.

Sister Lucille never did come around to my way of thinking!!

OJ, was suspended from school for 3 days for bringing a knife to school.

A knife he won at an OA weekend (For pie eating!!) He put the small knife in his pocket and forgot it was there.

I had to go to the school and pick him up.

Of course I wasn't happy.

But I do understand the zero tolerance policy that the school district has.

One teacher carried on as if this should be a hanging offense. The principal was nice about it and explained that the rule was the rule, but she knew it was an honest mistake.

To the best of my knowledge OJ has not tried drugs or alcohol. I think in part because he knows that he has too much to lose.

While he thinks I don't know!!

I have heard a good deal about the mischief that him and his pals got into while working at summer camp.

I was talking with a guy of about 26 years old who is a convicted criminal. He was telling me that he started selling crack on the street when he was nine years old. Often the money he brought home was the only income his family (Mother and brothers and sisters) had to put food on the table.

I wonder if at age eleven if we would have welcomed him into a Troop?

I wonder if we are capable of understanding that maybe these were the sorts of kids that BP had in mind when he first started thinking about Scouting?

Even the kids from "Good Families" seem to spend a lot of time on their own. Parents are busy, parents are tired, parents just aren't "There".

While maybe the idea of cute little Lads with clean faces and combed hair might be the poster Scouts?

I would hope we are able to do more than just be a meeting place for white, middle class, competitive kids from good families.

Eamonn

[OldGreyEagle]

Eamonn I am not sure if I would ever welcome a crack dealer as a scout. As a 9 year old he was the only source of income in his family? All other siblings were younger than him?

 

I would hope that if I ever would come across such a situation I would be able to put the family in contact with people who could turn the situation around and get the lad out of the crack business and in with positive role models, such as scouts of course but I cannot fathom that he was "forced" into the situation and there was no other alternative route for the family to go down. I may be Pollyanna's younger brother, but I can't buy it

[Gold Winger]

"I wonder if we are capable of understanding that maybe these were the sorts of kids that BP had in mind when he first started thinking about Scouting?"

 

I think that these are the people that BP had in mind because they would have made up the "Other Ranks" in his army.

[Bob White]

hmmm.... would I knowingly grant membership in a scout unit to a drug pusher??? That's a tough one. I would have to say....NO. And I am confident I say that with the complete support of every parent, committee member, and charter organization member of any unit in any town that I have ever lived in.

 

Would a boy have to be white, cute, clean faced, combed hair, and well dressed to be granted membership in a scout unit where I was a leader?

No, and I am confident I say that with the complete support of every parent, committee member, and charter organization member of any unit in any town that I have ever lived in.

 

What is a scout?

A Scout is a registered member of a pack, troop, team, crew, or ship who tries to learn and live by the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

After the young man STOPS selling drugs and other illegal actions, then he can seek membership in the unit I serve, but there is no way that anyone can rationalize that a person who sells illegal drugs is trying to live by the values of scouting.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

"A Scout is a registered member of a pack, troop, team, crew, or ship who tries to learn and live by the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

 

What about Lone Scouts? I guess they aren't Scouts.

[Bob White]

That's just being argumentative, and ignores the obvious point of the post, but if you really want to take that approach, I would not register a Lone Scout who I knew was a drug pusher... would you?.

[ozemu]

Eamonn I have wondered about this question of Scouting for the rest of the community. I have offered myself to the State HQ crew for just that purpose and have discussed the possibilities with teh state next door.

 

These kids (OGE unfortunately I believe the crack story - I've had a young man in my care who was delivering his mum's drugs on his bicycle at about that age) have a different world view. They would cross the line that most Troops would draw simply by saying "that was good fun". Same intent but their choice of words would be more earthy.

 

They generally have poor emotional control. Enormously happy or angry and wanting to lash out. Nothing much in between nor much warning that they will flick from one to the other. The PL would be the one who could intimidate the others the most. They need a much higher ratio of adults to youth and youth only would be quite unsafe.

 

Obviouvly the moral standards are different.

 

So for all the above they would not fit into a normal Troop. I have had a couple reffered from Social Services. They got along alright but they were fairly manageable and we supervised them more closely. A bit like having a Teachers Aid in the classroom. (not sure about terminology here). Most importantly there was just one or two in a Troop of 20 or so. But they were not current users or criminals. Being suspened from school is not a crime and that was about it.

 

So can we have crack dealers in the Troop? I think that the crack dealing smacks of more problems than a fully trained BSA leader can handle. They would have multiple mental illnesses and conditions. They need youth services types. If we partner the Troop with those services and have them on board then why not?

 

A have a lot of other ideas but won't clog up the forum in one go.

[Gold Winger]

" I would not register a Lone Scout who I knew was a drug pusher... would you?."

 

If he wants to be a Lone Scout it wouldn't be up to me and I don't believe your opinion would matter either.

 

 

As Bill Clinton said, "Words have meanings. . ." Funny how many are willing to impugn the intelligence of our chief executive because of his inability to communicate well cannot do it themselves.

[ozemu]

Also very worth considering is whether we want to change the make up of our Troop(s). Most Troops are safe places without the Lord of the Flies and where there is high trust and empathy. If we involve young people from the crack dealing ranks there will be a significant change in the character of the Troop.

 

To a fair extent a Troop is an unreal place. My kids go to a public school and thy get to be involved in the full range of lifestyles in our area. They don't need that at Scouts too. They walked into the Scout Hall barriers down rather than barriers up and that was good for them.

[Stosh]

This one's easy: Tom Slade!

 

Stosh

[Eamonn]

"A Scout is a registered member of a pack, troop, team, crew, or ship who tries to learn and live by the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

I'm more than OK to accept that as a fair definition of what a Scout is.

The point of my bringing up about a young crack dealer was to show that this does happen! There are very young kids out there caught up in things that people like me, seem happy to either ignore or just pretend are not happening.

Going back to:

" A Scout is a registered member of a pack, troop, team, crew, or ship who tries to learn and live by the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

The word that sticks out for me in that statement is "Tries".

Being a Scout didn't take a lot of effort for my son, he really didn't have to try.

Everything he needed was in place.

He could of course at any time decided to turn his back on his family and our family values.

When I read about teenagers who are addicted to drugs or alcohol, I wonder where their parents are? I also accept that addiction is an illness.

I have never had (As far as I know) a Scout, who while a Scout was an addict.Still I can't help thinking that any kid facing these demons would have to try a lot harder to be a Scout.

Most of the Scouts I know who have been caught with drugs or alcohol (In fact I have never caught a Scout with illegal drugs) have been experimenting or just trying it to find out what it is like?

They knew what they were doing was something that they ought not to have been doing. They knew what they were doing was wrong.

For that time they decided to stop trying to be a Scout.

What happened next - When I found out or caught them was up to me. (I'm thinking of a specific occasion, when I took the Troop to Holland and some of the older Scouts bought some beer and drank it.)

I felt that they had let me down, they had let the Troop down, let their parents down and had of course let themselves down.

They had messed up.

We did find a way of dealing with the incident, their parents were informed and involved with this. But the Troop was happy to keep them as Scouts. It did take a little more time for them to regain the trust I had placed upon them. - That was something I had to deal with as it was my problem.

It could or might be argued that drinking beer and trying illegal drugs are not the same thing?

 

A very long time ago when I was teaching, the problems I faced were kids chewing gum in class, talking in class and lads with their hands in their pockets (One of my pet peeves!)The idea that anyone would bring a gun to school and harm anyone? Was way beyond my comprehension and I think just about everyone else's.

Scouting can become a "Safe Place" for good kids to hang out. Maybe that is a good thing?

I however would like to see us go out and reach every eligible youth and do what we can to serve them.

I know that by doing this maybe the "Rockwell" image of Scouting will be harmed. I'm almost sure that Scouter's will be forced to face new problems and challenges.

At the risk of sounding out of line. I think the time for us to stop giving diversity lip service and the time to do more for the kids who maybe don't fit the image that a lot of people have of Boy Scouts and Scouting is now.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Bob White]

Is a scout unit the place for any age drug addicted person to be? NO! NO! NO!

 

That youth or adult addict needs help. They need real, serious, professional help. I am not saying not to get them help or not to be concerned for them, and please get them as much help, and be as deeply concerned as you choose to be. But they need mental and phycical medical care that the BSA program and its volunteer leaders are not trained to give in a scouting setting.

 

Nor should a leader, regardless of how caring they may be, use that emotion to expose other peoples children to real personal danger in order to satisfy their personal feelings of caring for the addicted individual.

 

ONLY after the youth or adult is clean and sober should they be considered for membership.

 

Eamonn, you have seen the results of drug addiction, and I would not be surprised to find you have been trained in the effects of addition on the addict. What is the #1 most important thing in an addicts life? His safety or well being? If that were true they wouldn't be addicted. Other peoples well being? If that were true there would not be such a high crime rate related to addiction.

Would learning and practicing scouting values be high on an addicts things to do list? of Course not. They have one and only one thing that is important to them and that is feeding the addiction.

 

There is NO PLACE around other peoples' children for an addict to be, while still under the control of the active addiction.

 

There is no logical comparison between a person who chews gum in class with a person addicted drugs,

 

 

[Eamonn]

As ever BW you have got my little gray cells working in over-drive.

For the record, I'm a little unsure where the comment "person who chews gum in class with a person addicted drugs" Comes into play?

I think maybe I wasn't very clear.

My point was that things seem to me to have changed a lot over the past 30 years. While of course back then (1970's) Drugs were around and there were children using them, it didn't seem as widespread as it is now.

I have been trained with how to deal with addicts, but most of the material focuses on adults and the training I have received only deals with adults.

(I don't work with youth offenders.)

While there is a lot of research being done in the area of addiction and there seems to be a lot of theories. For the most part I have been informed that there is no cure for addiction. Addicts can be detoxed, some do benefit from entering rehabilitation units after which some will receive some sort of therapy and enter into a 12 step program.

I spend a fair amount of time talking with these addicts about "People, Places and Things".

To the best of my knowledge there is no cure for addiction. Addicts do go into "Recovery". How well they do? Is dependent on a lot of factors, some of which they do have control over, some which they don't.

I'm sure (At least I think I'm sure!!) that you are not saying that we should turn our back on a youth who has been; shall we say an active addict (I know that there is no such term in use.) and is doing his or her best to work on their recovery.

There are times when I give my little "People, Places and Things" sermon, that I feel that I have no idea what the heck I'm talking about!

It's all too easy for me to maybe think that they will return to a nice safe neighborhood like the one where I live. While I have of course read about the places they live I have never lived there. While it's easy for me to tell everyone to "Just say No!" I'm not hanging out with a group of gang members who are all involved in drugs.

You are of course right when you say that we as volunteer leaders don't have the training to take on drug users.

My hope would be that maybe we could do more to do more for the youth in these areas before they get into this sort of activity.

I talk with a lot of men who if I believe what they say seem to have fathered a lot of kids, many to different women. Of course if they are talking to me it means that they are locked up and either have been or will be for a long time.

While of course the BSA, you,and I can't fix all of the problems that are out there.

I still think we could and can do more than what we are doing.

Over the coming weeks I will be visiting our Council summer camp. I'll bet that I don't see one black face or hear anyone speaking Spanish.

We have to improve on that!

Eamonn.

[Bob White]

Hi Eamonn I am having trouble keeping up with you.

 

Has the BSA not constantly been making efforts to expand the service base of their membership. Lots of BSA resourcxes are now available in Spanish, There is the ScoutReach program, The socccer program, an emphasis on inclusiveness at the highest level of leader training. Are they not continuing to do more each year.

 

I guess I just donh't know exactly what you would want the BSA to do for drug addicts or pushers. I agree these are serious problems, but can the BSA really be expected to be the cure to every social problem?

 

You asked what a scout is, has anyone said it had to be a cute rich white kid?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Any boy under the age of 18 can be a Scout. A rehabbed 15 year old heroin addict can be a Scout. The pastor's 14 year old son can be a Scout. The bi-racial 12 year old boy can be a Scout. A quadriplegic 11 year old boy can be a Scout. Any boy under the age of 18 & old enough to be a Tiger who subscribes to the membership requirements of the BSA can be a Scout.