leadership development

[Kudu]

This is from the spun thead "What is it Based On?"

 

Bob White writes:

 

Kudu you run various elements together as if they all meant the same thing. The patrol method, is a separate issue from Leadership Development Method. Not all junior leaders are part of a patrol, and not all junior leaders are patrol leaders.

 

That is precisely the point, isn't it? Leadership Development was invented in 1972 by the same people who invented for the "Urban Emphasis" demographic a path to Eagle that did not require a single campout.

 

If you are not required to ever go camping to earn Eagle, then why center Patrol Leader Training on hiking and camping?

 

Leadership Development invented exactly the same training for all "Junior Leaders" so that the Troop Librarian can learn the same "important leadership skills" as the Patrol Leader. So "Patrol Leader Training" (how to plan and lead Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights) became "Junior Leader Training" (how to "get and give information," how to "manage learning," etc.).

 

The training was moved indoors. Is it really any wonder that Troops stopped allowing their Patrol Leaders to Hike and Camp without adults hovering a few yards away?

 

The camping requirements for Eagle were restored eight years later, but Leadership Development remained abstract and classroom-centered.

 

Bob White writes:

 

The Patrol Method is not the same as the leadership development method yet you constantly intermix them.

 

Because Leadership Development replaced Patrol Leader Training (specific Outdoor Leadership Skills) with "Junior Leader Training" (abstract indoor manager skills).

 

Suppose we did the same thing with BSA Lifeguard: Any Scout could then earn his six month POR credit by running for BSA Lifeguard in a popularity contest held every six months. Troop BSA Lifeguard Training would consist of teaching the BSA Lifeguards the BSA Mission Statement, Life Skills in a Values-Based Environment, some fake B-P quotes, The BSA Vision Statement, EDGE, and handing him a "Position Description" card with the new Lifeguard Responsibilities dumbed-down to the level of "Leadership Development:"

 

A BSA Lifeguard:

 

Sets the example.

Wears the uniform correctly.

Lives the Scout Oath and Law.

Shows Scout spirit.

Gets wet.

Blows whistle.

 

Then the Bob Whites of the world would explain that the "Swimming Method" has NOTHING to do with the depth of water. The ancient requirement to jump into water over your head is "old fashioned," and that for anyone to state that a pool must be more than a foot deep in order to use the Swimming Method effectively is just silly.

 

When Patrol Leaders were trained to conduct their own Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights they had controlled-risk responsibilities similar to those of a BSA Life Guard.

 

The fact that everyone so fiercely fights separating the Patrols on Troop campouts is because we no longer train and trust Patrol Leaders, just as we would no longer allow "Real" swimming if we used the same Leadership Development techniques to train BSA Life Guards as we do BSA Patrol Leaders.

 

That should not be so difficult to understand. The reason that people attack my personality and play word games with "300 feet" is because they can not deal with the obvious real-world limitations of Leadership Development without risking the accusation that they are not "Loyal" to the BSA.

 

Bob White writes:

 

The BSA, as you continue to point out in your page references, supports the practice of patrols doing activities on theior own and then in another breath you say that the BSA no longer follows the that idea.

 

Because the Guide to Safe Scouting still allows Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights without adult supervision, but we do no longer train Patrol Leaders how to actually conduct Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights (if only in the context of Troop Campouts). That should not be so difficult to understand, Bob White.

 

Bob White writes:

 

The BSA does, its just that not all leaders follow the BSA program. There is very little about the Patrol Method in the training or resources of the BSA program that has changed over the decades. Not all scoutmasters followed the program in the past and not all follow it today. But the BSA still teaches and supports it.

 

That is simply not true. The BSA no longer offers "Patrol Leader Training." If you or your leaders followed the BSA program prior to 1972 it would be obvious that the following specific techniques for training Patrol Leaders how to plan and conduct Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights are missing from any current BSA training course:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

Bob White writes:

 

Perhaps you live in a part of the country where campgrounds are always large enough to allow Patrols to be 300 feet apart. But you need to come to the realization that that is not always the case. not all camping areas will have that features available.

 

It depends on your priorities. If you always camp in "campgrounds" that offer warm showers and flush toilets (the standard definition of a "campground," I think), then your Troop will camp at "campgrounds" where separating the Patrols by more than a few feet seems impossible.

 

I have never camped at a Scout Camp where we couldn't separate the Patrols by 300 feet (it helps to take the time to get to know the Ranger).

 

Bob White writes:

 

Perhaps in your area State and county parks allow youth to be in a campsite without an adult . Not all states allow that.

 

All of the National Forests that I have camped in allowed Patrol Camping if you were 300 feet from the nearest road, parking lot, or established campground. Obviously some state and county "parks" are more restrictive than National Forests.

 

Bob White writes:

 

For you to state that you have to be 300 feet away from another patrol in order to use the Patrol Method effectively is just silly.

 

It is one of the very few elements of Baden-Powell's Wood Badge that remain in some Wood Badge courses.

 

Bob White writes:

 

There IS NO Wood badge approach that patrols be 300 ft apart. I have no idea where you get such things.

 

After having been in several Wood Badge courses I don't even know what you mean by a "Wood Badge approach". Which Wood Badge? Which actiuvity? Which Skill?

 

Um, the actual distance (be it 50, 100, 200, or Baden-Powell's 300 feet), is secondary to camping out of sight and usually out of earshot of the other Patrols. The basic idea was expressed by the eminent Scouting authority "Bob White" when he wrote:

 

"I have been involved in several Wood Badge courses and in each one the patrols camped out of sight, and usually out of earshot, from the other patrols."

 

Bob White writes:

 

We break particiupants in basic leader tarining in small groups. We break participants in New Leader Essentials into small groups.

 

Yeah, this may be the reason that so many trained Scouters think of the "Patrol Method" as breaking up into eight-person groups to do "team-building exercises," rather than "Patrol Hike and Patrol Overnight planning exercises."

 

My Scouts always come back from NYLT with notebooks full of these "team-building exercises." At least my BSA Lifeguards do not come back with them yet

 

Bob White writes:

 

A lot of what you post is contrived to fit your opinion has no little relationship to scout past or present.

 

That is just your opinion, an ad hominem contrivance to move the subject away from Leadership Development and the Patrol Method. Your opinion has no relationship to my posts, past or present.

 

Kudu

 

[Bob White]

 

Leadership Development replaced Patrol Leader Training, in title only, it did not replace the Patrol Method.

 

The Method name changed from Patrol Leader Training to Leadership Development, because we train more youth than just Patrol Leaders, so to reflect that they changed the name of the Method. The Method itself did not change, only the title.

 

And the Patrol Method did not alter one little bit.

 

Again, you continually intermix the Patrol Method with Leadership Development Method when in fact they refer to two different tools of the BSA program. You cannot reach a logical conclusion if you continually refuse to use true premises.

 

Forget knowing the Ranger...It helps more to know the program! The patrols in the unit I served as Scoutmaster would go the the scout camp on their own.

 

It doesn't matter how well you know the ranger if camp is near capacity you cannot help how close to another occupied site you are. if the sides are 150 feet away from each other it does not alter their ability to function as a patrol. The important thing is not distance, The important thing is having the skills and abilities needed to operate as an independent unit.

 

Perhaps you do not train Scouts to be able to function independently but the BSA still does. It is still in the handbook and still taught.

If you see units that do not develop patrols to be independent then that is an adult leadership problem for not following the BSA program. The BSA does not lead troops, volunteer leaders do. It is not the BSA's fault if leaders do not follow the program methods.

 

"It is one of the very few elements of Baden-Powell's Wood Badge that remain in some Wood Badge courses."

 

You are wrong Kudu, this is not a "Wood Badge element", functioning as separate entities is a long standing basic element of the Patrol method and is not tied to any specific distance. It is inane to think that a patrol can only function if its is X distance from another campsite, no matter what distance you want to insert.

 

The patrols are not in their campsites all that much so they could just as easily be 100 feet apart and it would not make a difference.

 

You simple have no idea what the actual administrative or educational elements of Wood Badge are or why they exist.

 

And again, Wood badge is not the only training or activity where elements of the Den Method or Patrol Method are used, so to call it a "Wood Badge element" is just wrong. Wood Badge coursed are normally staffed by trained experienced scouters who know that the BSA program methods support patrols being able to function independently and so they use the resources available to them to help enhance that BSA Method. Since Wood Badge course normally have the entire campground reserved we tend to make use of as much of that space as possible.

 

To suggest that I said this was a "Wood Badge element" is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. Its a good scouting practice that most any trained Scoutmaster or assistant SM know, they just dont all use it.

 

I have camped in national forests and I know that you cannot have a campsite that does not have at least 1 person age 21 or older in. The same is true of State parks and County parks in my State, and I would bet in your State as well. And very few have a group site where there would be enough room for multiple patrols to be 300 feet from another campsite.

 

Your posts though wordy have little actual fact in them. You misrepresent terms, you misrepresent the BSA training course contents, you misrepresent how the BSA teaches the Methods and what the Methods actually mean.

 

The BSA did not drop Patrol Leader Training as a Method, they kept the Method and merely changed the name to reflect the fact that we train more than just patrol leaders.

 

Your rant is over a non-issue. The things you say do not exist in the BSA still do, it's just that not everyone follows the BSA program.

 

You think you are some kind of visionary or renegade when in fact the things you harp on from "BPs Boy Scout Program" that you 'refuse to give up' are in fact still taught and supported in today's BSA program. The problem is you spend more time learning about the past then you have spent learning about the present.

 

You do not like today's program even though you are doing it, you just dont realize that we still teach it.

 

Kind of ironic when you think about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kudu]

Bob White writes:

 

You do not like today's program even though you are doing it, you just dont realize that we still teach it.

 

OK, quote from the current Patrol Leader Training Course that teaches Patrol Leaders exactly how to hold a Patrol Meeting to plan a Patrol Hike or a Patrol Overnight without adults.

 

I'd also like to see a quote from a National Forest that prohibits Patrols from camping 300 feet from the nearest adult.

 

Kudu

 

 

 

[Bob White]

The explanation that a patrol can do activities on their own without adult supervision is on page 28 of the Patrol Leaders Handbook

The agenda for a patrol meeting is on pages 62,63

The different types of patrol activities and various resources and elements for planning those activities can be found in Chapter 5 pages 69 to 86.

 

The leadership characteristics can be found on pages 7-16

and in chapter 6 pages 86-112

 

The scout learns the details of these skills and characteristics through the coaching and mentoring given by adult leaders. We call that the Leadership Development Method by the way.

 

You really do not choose to see the contents and resources of the BSA or acknowledge the fact that they still teach and support independent Patrol activities. Hopefully others will not be as myopic.

 

I urge you to contact National Forests, as well as State and County Parks in your area and ask if youth groups without adult supervision can camp there.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Kudu]

No, Bob White, I asked you to quote directly any material that directly teaches Patrol Leaders how to take their Patrols on Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts without adult supervision. The pre-1972 Handbook for Patrol Leaders devotes 189 pages of specific step by step instruction about the risks involved and exactly how to do it. That is much different from the teaser on page 28 of the current PL handbook.

 

Likewise Patrol Leader Training was a pre-1972 six month course in which the Scoutmaster formed a Patrol of Patrol Leaders (called the "Green Bar Patrol") and taught them specifically how to take their Patrols on Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts. Your idea that "The scout learns the details of these skills and characteristics through the coaching and mentoring given by adult leaders" refers to no BSA training material on how to "mentor" your Scouts to camp without adult supervision. That is why hardly any such "mentoring" ever takes place. It is irresponsible, and a glaring failure of our training.

 

Bob White writes:

 

We call that the Leadership Development Method by the way.

 

My point exactly. Leadership Development talks about hazy general ideas, but it provides absolutely no specific course material on how to teach a Patrol Leader how to take his Patrol on Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts without adult supervision. That is why so few Scouter.Com readers have ever actually done that. My guess is that at most one out of every thousand have ever even allowed a Patrol to camp 300 feet from the nearest adult on a Troop Campout. We call that training failure the "Leadership Development Method," by the way.

 

Bob White writes:

 

I urge you to contact National Forests, as well as State and County Parks in your area and ask if youth groups without adult supervision can camp there.

 

I have, and there is no National Forest restriction on Patrols camping 300 feet from the nearest adult, as long as they are at least 300 feet from the nearest trailhead. We never had any problems backpacking in the Adirondack State Park as teenagers. We never camp in "County Parks" so I have no idea what goes on in the tourist world of warm showers and flush toilets. You should get out more often, Bob White

 

OK, I have run out of time. I will catch up with this thread in July.

 

Kudu

 

[Bob White]

Again with distance? What makes 300 ft better than 275 or 150 or 8? It is more important that the patrol can be developed to function, and is allowed to function, on activities WITHOUT YOU or any other adult having to be present whether 30 feet, or 300 ft, or 30 miles away. That is when the patrol method is at its pinnacle and it is not dependent on any specific distance.

 

Anyone can read that BSA Handbooks or attend the training and see that the BSA supports the Patrol Method and wants patrols to go on activities ON THIER OWN, under youth leadership, just as BP and Hillcourt encouraged. NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

 

You rant over elements that still exist that you simply refuse to acknowledge. One would think that you would be happy that these elements are still in scouting. You want them to be but then you get beligernet when you find out that they are.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

How many threads does it take you two to argue the same thing? And some of the questions posed are never answered!

[Kudu]

Bob White writes:

 

Again with distance? What makes 300 ft better than 275 or 150 or 8?

 

That is a very good question. Why is it that "Leadership Development" experts NEVER talk about distance? Why do discussions about the pros and cons of 8 feet versus 30, 150, or 275 feet between Patrols provoke personal attacks?

 

My guess is that if they separate them at all, the overwhelming majority of Troops in the United States camp their Patrols at about eight feet apart. Part of this may be due to the practicalities of campgrounds with flush toilets, warm showers, and electricity.

 

But the real reason for keeping Patrols so close together is that any business management theory will work if the Patrols are only eight feet apart. The adults are always within earshot and can step in to "mentor" the junior managers when "Leadership Development" theories don't work.

 

300 feet was Baden-Powell's standard of how far apart Patrols should camp. Baden-Powell's image appears on so many Wood Badge souvenirs: Wood Badge patches, Wood Badge hat pins, Wood Badge stave medallions, and Wood Badge neckerchiefs.

 

But any mention of Baden-Powell's Patrol System standard sends holders of the Wood Badge into a frenzy of rage.

 

Why is that?

 

Obviously they are hiding something: They dare not face the sting of personal attacks that will result if they admit that abstract indoor theory is a poor substitute for a Patrol Leader Training based on the traditional outdoor leadership skills, see:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

evmori writes:

 

And some of the questions posed are never answered!

 

What questions haven't I answered?

 

Kudu

 

[evmori]

What I meant Kudu was there have been general questions asked in this thread that have gone unanswered not necessarily posed to you specifically.

 

One example would be Bob never answering what servant leadership means to him. Sure he posted there are books on the topic & has posted what is in those books. That doesn't answer the question, though. If I wanted to know what was in certain books, I would read them. What I asked was "What does servant leadership mean to you, Bob?" Up until now, the question is unanswered.(This message has been edited by evmori)

[FScouter]

Kudu, I think he's still trying to inveigle BW into a logomachy, notwithstanding the confutative ejaculation that that is sure to follow.

[Bob White]

Kudu,

As my Uncle Clyde used to say..."Son, I don't know what drugs you are taking but your either taking too much or not enough.

 

"But any mention of Baden-Powell's Patrol System standard sends holders of the Wood Badge into a frenzy of rage."

 

That's just nuts!

 

Here is where I think trained Scout leaders get frenzied around you. They can teach scouts how to lead a patrol or a troop at ANY distance, where as you need at least 300 hundred feet.

 

This entire distance from campsite thing amuses me because you make the campsite seem so darn important. I thought the campsite was where you ate and slept. When I'm sleeping I really don't care if there is a tent 10 ft from me or 500 ft. When I cook in my yard and my neighbor is just 150 feet away cooking I have no trouble being totally independent of him , why would a patrol be different?

 

I am not sure that you even have a clear understanding of what the patrol method is. So let's compare. I'll even go first. The patrol Method is an unique element of scouting where groups of 8 to 10 boys under the leadership of a youth member of the group, act as an independent team in everything they do. When patrols gather they form a troop also under a youth leader whose job is to coordinate the efforts of the patrols for the benefit of all through the decisions of a council of patrol leaders.

 

Granted it is a simplified version but I thought that would be the best place to start.

 

Now you tell me your understanding of the Patrol method and please include why it is distance related?

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Kudu]

 

Bob White writes:

 

Now you tell me your understanding of the Patrol method and please include why it is distance related?

 

To understand the Patrol Method we must first define "Patrol." I like the BSA's definitions of a "Real Patrol" and a "Camping Patrol" as they appeared in the traditional Handbook for Patrol Leaders:

 

1) As soon as you are able you will want to take your boys on Patrol Hikes. You want your Patrol to be a real one, and only a hiking Patrol is a real Patrol

 

2) One of your greatest services as a Patrol Leader is to try to make your Patrol into a Camping Patrol trained in the ways of the experienced campers. This takes time. It takes also patience and perseverance. But it can be done, and you are well under way toward doing it, the day you have made your boys into real hikers as described in the previous chapter.

 

So the BSA's definition of a "Real Patrol" is a group of about eight Scouts that hikes (and ideally camps) without adult supervision. Therefore the BSA defines a Real Patrol ONLY in terms of distance ("Real Hikers").

 

Given the BSA's definition of a "Real Patrol" and a "Camping Patrol" I would be in general agreement with your definition of the Patrol Method, with a few refinements:

 

The Patrol Method is [an element of Citizenship training unique to] Scouting where groups of 8 to 10 [scouts] under the leadership of a [Patrol Leader encouraged to continue in that role as long as he is the most competent outdoor leader in the Patrol], act as an independent team in everything they do. When Patrols gather they form a Troop under a [senior Patrol Leader selected by the Patrol Leaders in consultation with the Scoutmaster] whose job is to coordinate the efforts of the Patrols for the benefit of all through the decisions of a Council of Patrol Leaders.

 

Bob White writes:

 

Here is where I think trained Scout leaders get frenzied around you. They can teach scouts how to lead a patrol or a troop at ANY distance,

 

But they don't, do they Bob White? How often does a "trained Scout leader" jump in to say that he used his Wood Badge skills to train Patrols how to hike and camp at ANY distance without adult supervision?

 

Trained Scout leaders get "frenzied" with me because it would be foolhardy and dangerous to allow Patrol Leaders replaced every six months in POR elections and trained only with BSA Leadership Development techniques to camp 300 feet from the nearest adult. So rather than admit that the 1972 invention of "Leadership Development" was a mistake, they rationalize its limitations by asserting that "Real Patrols" are "old fashioned," or they move the discussion from Scouting theory to personality with assertions like "I don't know what drugs you are taking," or "That's just nuts!"

 

Bob White writes:

 

where as you need at least 300 hundred feet.

 

No, I never said what I need. 300 feet is Baden-Powell's standard. 200, 100, or even 50 feet with young Patrols is OK with me.

 

Bob White writes:

 

When I cook in my yard and my neighbor is just 150 feet away cooking I have no trouble being totally independent of him,

 

Um, what happened to your previous eight foot example, Bob White?

 

I would not want to hang out eight feet from where my neighbor is cooking, especialy if he was likely to step in to "mentor" me if my posse was not behaving in a Scout-like fashion.

 

If you really think that most people do not act differently at 150 feet from a supervisor than they do at eight feet, then we have found why Baden-Powell's 300 foot standard mystifies you so much, Bob White

 

Bob White writes:

 

why would a patrol be different?

 

Some say that character is what you do when no-one is looking. I say that Patrol Leadership is what a Patrol does when no adult is looking.

 

Bob White writes:

 

I am not sure that you even have a clear understanding of what the patrol method is. So let's compare.

 

Bob White, I'm not sure that the BSA "Leadership Development" trainers have a clear understanding of the Patrol Method is.

 

So let's compare our own two definitions to the BSA's four Patrol Method Teaching Objectives on page 53 of the SM & ASM Specific training outline:

 

"Show how to establish an environment that is safe..."

"Explain that listening well is the first step in using appropriate leadership styles."

"Show how positive reinforcement is among the most valuable contributions..."

"Employ various supportive leadership styles...directing, coaching, supporting, and delegating."

 

That sounds like indoor Leadership Development theory to me, nothing that hints at how to delegate to Patrol Leaders the responsibility of cooking 150 feet from Bob White's neighbor.

 

Kudu

 

[Beavah]

Yah, this thread is a funny one, eh?

 

Kudu, I don't think yeh realize it, but BobWhite is one of your allies. He's one of da few and the proud who really believe in independent patrol campin'. But your style of argument tends to drive away even your natural allies sometimes (though it us fun to read with a beer and popcorn).

 

BW, yeh have to admit Kudu has a point, eh? How many troops out there are really doin' independent patrol camping anymore? And yet that really is patrol method, isn't it? If a patrol isn't doing any independent patrol campin', yeh have to admit that they're not really followin' the program. (He's also right about National Forests, BLM lands, and most state forests, eh? I reckon only in da parks would yeh find an age restriction, and only if there were a problem).

 

So the question is why they aren't followin' the program and doin' independent patrol campin'. Some of it is fear and overprotective parent syndrome, fer sure. In a few places the legal trend of overregulatin' young folks might make it inadvisable. But what of the rest? Yeh have to admit, TLT and NYLT really don't teach a lad how to lead an independent patrol outing, and one mention on page 28 really isn't the same as the extensive discussion in the old Patrol Leader's Handbook (and SM handbook for that matter). We old timers recognize that the essence of patrol method is independent patrol campin', but where are the young adult leaders learnin' that?

 

I think Kudu gets way too caught up on the whole 300 feet bit, too. But I think his point is this: the test of whether you're really doin' the Scouting Program correctly is whether your patrols can and do camp independently, far enough away from adults and each other so that there's no "cheating". I'm with you, the distance doesn't really matter, it's the independence that counts. But yeh have to admit, it's a good "test" he proposes, and even a reasonable ethic. If patrol method is really important to us, perhaps we should be reservin' 5 well-scattered sites rather than one big one, eh?

 

It'd be fun for both of you to team up on a different thread and challenge all da SM's here on Scouter.Com to run real, independent-camping patrols and talk about the benefits of usin' the Scouting Program properly that way.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

The fact that some tropp leaders do not use the patrol method or do not use it to its fll potential has to do with leader selection not Wood Badghe. There is nothing in Wood Badge that undermines or negates ANY Method of Scouting.

 

What Kudu does not realize is that the patrol method is an element of scouting that needs to be taught more to adults then to youth. For Youth the Patrol method is natural. If he looked, Kudu would see kids of scout age who are not in scouting gathering in small groupds under their own leadership. What Baden-Powel did that was so unique was that rather than try and change that natural social element in youth he wanted to change the adults to use the tendencies of youth to teach values and skills that would allow them to grow ito independence.

 

Most sdults come to the BSA with a very poor understanding of good leadership. They come after years of experience with two notoriously bad sets of leaders, parents and employers.

 

It only takes about three minutes to explain what the Patrol Method is. It takes most the day to get adults to understand that small groups lead by scouts is not only Okay but THE ONLY WAY to deliver a quality scouting program.

 

You can't teach them that by telling them to camp X-number of feet away. You teach them that leaders do not have to be tyrants, We teach them to relx, listen, ask questions, allow youth to make decisions and coach them on how to make good ones.

 

To suggest that there is ANYTHING in Wood Badge that works against the Patrol Method is simple a matter of Kudu having more attitude than aptitude about the contents and training methods of the BSA.

 

Some leaders get the Patrol Method idea and some refuse to accept it. The BSA teaches it but not everyone pays attention.

 

Kudu's experience with BSA training is the same as his experience with the Scouting of B-P's days, he has only read about them, he wasn't there. He never lived the scouting of B-Ps day and he has never learned how to lead BSA training or taught the BSA training.

 

His attitude exceeeds his aptitude.

 

I have known lots of scouters who use the patrol method probabley to a greater extent than Kudu himself. And Kudu and I have both met many thet haven't a clue what the patrol Method is really about. 6 years ago when I first brought up Patrol activities without adults present on this forum most posters at that time (many who are still active on the forum, had never heard of such a thing before. The fact that it had been in the handbook for decades was a shock to them.

 

So it's not that the BSA didn't tell them about it. I would bet that now that we are 6 years further down the road, most of them have still yet to get to the point where they have patrols doing independent activities. Even though they have known for 6 years that that is the goal of the patrol Method. So it's not the BSA, it's the leaders. Some get it, some don't. Some have developed the leadership skills to lead a troop rather than run a troop, and some have not.

 

Many of the Boy Scout related problems posted on this forum, and other similar scouting forums, all come down to the Patrol Method not being used.

 

You would think Kudu would be happy to hear that the BSA is still a teacher and proponent of the foundations of Scouting that B-P designed, but he is not.

 

He would rather complain than learn the truth.

 

 

 

[Beavah]

His attitude exceeeds his aptitude.

 

Yah, that may be true, eh? About all of us I reckon .

 

But honestly, you two really do agree on the program, just not the relative value of current BSA trainin'. You blame the people, he blames the trainin', but yeh both agree that the outcomes aren't often what we like to see.

 

I reckon both trainin' and people are to blame (i.e. you're both right), but I think yeh need to think different about trainin' and materials. There's a difference between learning and training. It takes a lot more time, effort, experience, and repetition to actually learn somethin' than can be provided in a training session or a book. Yah, sure, yeh introduced the concept to some of this audience six years ago. But it needs repetition, mate! Especially since this ain't da same audience anymore. Lots of new folks!

 

So I'm invitin' you and Kudu to collaborate on somethin' we all care about - real Patrol Method, real independent patrol camping. Rather than blamin' anything or anybody... teach! Take positive action rather than negative! Give examples from da good troops you mention. Repeat things in different ways as often as necessary to help other Scouter.Com readers truly understand.

 

I challenge yeh both! Help other people at all times!

 

Beavah