speaking about consequences

[Beavah]

I'm far more appalled at the idea that discussion should be avoided at a court of honor. The venue will have far greater attendance of parents, siblings, and Scouts than any troop meeting, committee meeting, PLC meeting, or campout. And nobody is going to come to a special meeting to talk about it.

 

Yah, perhaps there's a reason for that, eh?

 

The reason is that most parents and kids don't want to voluntarily spend their time bein' lectured to by the Scoutmaster. Rightly or wrongly, they think that folks should Praise in Public, and Reprimand in Private. Rightly or wrongly as parents they figure they're better equipped to take da keys away from Johnny Scout and have an intense "family discussion" or mete out consequences than da guy that only sees the kid once a week for an hour. Rightly or wrongly, they've got better uses for their time.

 

So what is bein' suggested is that in response the Scoutmaster should take an event that they want to come to - an event designed to Praise in Public, an event designed to recognize achievement in ways that youth and adults find valuable enough to attend - and steal it from 'em. Turn part of it into a lecture on safety. Make what should be a celebration into a downer.

 

Only thing I reckon that encourages is lower attendance at a Court of Honor, or people comin' late or leavin' early to avoid the dull stuff.

 

When workin' with Scoutmasters, I always tell 'em that it's hard to confront individual kids, firmly, in private. It takes personal courage, strength of conviction, and real love and concern for the lad. It's far easier to organize a lecture to a whole group about rules, eh? Or to get da committee to pass a "policy" for everyone. That way the SM can hide behind the support of his friends in the group and behind da rules. The SM doesn't need to show either personal courage or personal love and concern to another individual, but can still feel like she's "done something".

 

A Scouter should be Brave.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[evmori]

If this was brought up at a CoH I would bet the attendance at the next CoH would drop dramatically. Why should those who have no involvement in this incident or unit be forced to listen to a disciplinary talk about the Scouts who were hood surfing? Oh wait! I can answer that! They shouldn't! This should be dealt with but a CoH is not the proper place to deal with it.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Remember what I said about misrepresenting people's posts so that you can obscure the actual point or support your own opinion based on a false premise.

 

Here is a great example...

"The reason is that most parents and kids don't want to voluntarily spend their time bein' lectured to by the Scoutmaster.

 

No post has ever recommended a lecture by the scoutmaster at the coh.

 

"folks should Praise in Public, and Reprimand in Private."

 

No post has suggested a public reprimand.

 

"Rightly or wrongly as parents they figure they're better equipped to take da keys away from Johnny Scout and have an intense "family discussion" or mete out consequences than da guy that only sees the kid once a week for an hour."

 

No post has suggested that anyone in throop should or could take keays away or mete out consequences.

 

" Only thing I reckon that encourages is lower attendance at a Court of Honor, or people comin' late or leavin' early to avoid the dull stuff."

 

No post ever suggested that the presentation should be dull.

 

"It's far easier to organize a lecture to a whole group about rules, eh?

 

Not a single post talked about rules or lecturing on rules.

 

" The SM doesn't need to show either personal courage or personal love and concern to another individual, but can still feel like she's "done something".

 

Taking sopecific action to help keep paremts of scouts informed of dangers That direclty relate to their children is not "feeling" like youare doming something it IS doing something.

 

"A Scout is Brave"

 

There is nothing cowardly about educating scouts and parents. Is having a speaker on fire safety cowardly? Is the DARE program cowardly? Is the gospel reading at your church on Sunday cowardly?

 

All are ways that we educate and care for people.

 

A scout is also Trustworthy but Beavah's post was a litany of misrepresentations designed to bolster his point of view by addressing opposing points of view that he created out of blue, and that do not exist in the thread.

 

No poster in this thread supported any of the points that he made up.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Let's see. We have the incident in Lisabob's post. At the very next CoH, we have an officer of the law and an emergency room doctor giving graphic examples of the results of hood surfing. The suggestion is then made to go home & have a serious discussion about this. Then I suppose you would have cherry punch & chocolate chunk cookies!

 

If I was a parent that came to a CoH like this & my son wasn't involved, I would never com back to another CoH. Even if my son was involved, I would never come to another CoH! I might even start looking for a new Troop. Imagine grandma & grandpa showing up hoping to see their grandson get his merit badges & have to sit through this! You might be glad you have the police & a doctor handy because these folks are gonna need them!

 

This might not be a public reprimand to you, but it sure isn't a private one!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Beavah]

 

The point yeh missed in all that careful dissecting of sentences, BW, was the real point. To anybody sitting in the Court of Honor, a lecture from da SM and the troop is exactly what the presentation you're proposing would feel like. Kids and their parents aren't stupid. They know exactly what incident you're talkin' about and what people your little presentation is targeted at. And they'd be right, eh? It isn't really a safety discussion. It's a response to a particular incident that you've chosen to make everyone sit through. The lads involved will be suitably embarrassed. The parents of the lads involved will either be embarrassed or livid. All the other kids will know exactly what's goin' on and be able to snicker about it or feel sorry for their buddies.

 

And that's clearly the intent, eh? What you're proposin' is not the same thing as a sermon on Sunday. Unless your pastor and half da congregation witnessed you doin' something stupid last week, and he chose the reading and the sermon for da week to talk about how stupid the action you did was, in front of everybody. While you sat there and squirmed, your family got angry, and everyone else sat there feelin' embarrassed for you and wonderin' why they bothered to come to church to listen to it, eh? That's what a COH presentation feels like to me, eh?

 

Loved your example of DARE, though, because DARE is da poster child for a big, expensive, long-term, "have to do something" program that didn't work.

 

In Scoutin', we teach scout leaders to respond to youth behaviors with courtesy, kindness, bravery, and a constructive manner. I don't see a COH presentation which is clearly a response to a particular incident as bein' consistent with the Methods or Values of Scoutin'. Just MHO.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

What I made quite clear was that you fabricated every point you brought up, and purposely misrepresented everything that was actually posted that did not support your personal opinion.

 

It was a dishonest way for you to discuss the topic.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[FScouter]

Yes, speaking directly to the boy(s) and parents involved in a specific incident is a fine way to deal with the behavior. Now what about the rest of the boys? Surely hood surfing should not become a topic verboten now because someone might get their feelings hurt. Do we stop talking about drug abuse because a boy in the troop got busted for dope? Frankly, I care more about educating the rest of the boys than about any mis-perception that the guilty parties are being publicly chastised.

[Beavah]

What I made quite clear was that you fabricated every point you brought up

 

And what I brought up was that from my perspective I didn't fabricate a thing, eh? I simply voiced what that solution could feel like to other people. It might not be a person's intent to create a dull, inappropriate, adult-run, lecture/presentation at a COH. The person proposin' it would never use those words, I'm sure.

 

The point is, intent or not, that might very well be the effect of such a choice, eh? And those are da only words which can be used to describe the effect.

 

As an aside, your reply demonstrates that it can be really difficult for adults who are used to bein' "in charge" to grasp the real meanin' of the leadership principle "Praise in Public, Reprimand in Private." That's somethin' where reminders from fellow scouters and friends can help. Hopefully they can catch us before we lecture (or worse) someone in public.

 

[added]

FScouter, here's a question for yeh. Did you do a presentation for your boys on the dangers of hood surfing at a Court of Honor last year? If yeh really thought it was a danger that should be addressed with education, then yeh should have been doin' it as a regular part of da program before the incident, right? Just like we all do with da Second Class requirement about drugs.

 

If yeh really feel it's somethin' (like drug abuse) that needs to be addressed with youth in your area, then add a requirement . Teach it, check their understanding, reward their understanding as a part of your regular troop program.

 

Respondin' with a one-shot presentation immediately after da fact isn't how we teach in Scoutin'. It's more like "pilin' on" to me.

 

B

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[evmori]

Nothing was fabricated. No one ever attributed untrue statements to any poster. No one has been dishonest!

 

FScouter,

 

I don't think anyone is saying the entire Troop shouldn't be addressed about this. What I and Beav & others are stating is a CoH is not the proper venue to do it! A regular Troop meeting, the next campout would be more appropriate venues.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

OK thanks folks, I think we all see each other's views at this point in the discussion. So how about we leave things where they are, hmm? Because it appears that the discussion here is past the point of being useful - at least, to me.

 

I do appreciate the thoughtful posts of many people who gave their views on this topic and I am also confident that our troop has found what we feel is an appropriate way to handle the matter. Many of the options and views expressed earlier in this thread helped us. Thanks again.