What Is An Appropriate Consequence?

[Bob White]

You need to realize that being a scout is more than just dressing like a scout, and that sometimes a youth quits scouting but forgets to stop coming to the meetings. Such youth can, and have, driven good scouts from a troop or from the program altogether. Our primary responsibility is to deliver the mission of scouting to those who want to share in it, not to have our attention taken by those who want to interfere with it.

 

A youth who brings illegal drugs to a scout activity has already quit the program, he just forgot to stop coming.

[Venividi]

> A youth who brings illegal drugs to a scout activity ...

 

I think that this is one of the key factors in a scouter's decision on how to treat the scout. How the leaders choose to treat him might well be different if the scout was found smoking marijuana out behind the city water tower after school than if he were caught doing so on a scout outing. The scout has been reciting the scout oath and law for a number of years. He knows marijuana/cigarettes/alcohol/etc is not allowed. When bringing such to a scout outing, he has betrayed trust to a much greater degree. Scouting is a safe haven, and parents have a right to expect that their sons will not be tempted or exposed to such things while on a scout activity.

 

[Eamonn]

"A youth who brings illegal drugs to a scout activity has already quit the program, he just forgot to stop coming."

Maybe I'm a little guilty of trying to do everything possible to save every Scout?

I do know that I'm in no way shy of doling out tough love.

A youth who is using illegal drugs has a problem and does need help.

We might not be the best fit for dealing with this?

But there are times when who knows some Scout Leader might be just what is needed.

It's all too easy to view Scouts as Angels in uniforms. But the truth is that Scouts are a work in progress.

Kids do make bad decisions, they do take the wrong path.

To just dismiss a Lad because he has made a mistake? No, I'm sorry I think that is not what we should do.

Each and everyone of us deals with the consequences of our actions everyday. Sometimes we benefit from them, sometimes we suffer.

While life is not always fair or may not seem fair. Removing the Scout from the program is not fixing the problem, it is I would hope the last option that we should think of as being a "Appropriate Consequence"

Eamonn

 

[Bob White]

"Maybe I'm a little guilty of trying to do everything possible to save every Scout?"

 

That would depend I suppose on your definition of a "Scout".

[BadenP]

Bob, I think you are being a little too harsh to Eamonn, if this is a first time then you owe the boy at least a chance to explain why before passing sentence. Maybe the kid is being abused at home, failing in school etc. Usually in my experience when drugs have been at a scout outing there was always more than one person involved. Sometimes it is easier to be black and white without concern for the youth but as scouters we owe the kids more than that. We are not God after all so we should not judge like we are! One mistake does not void out a boys scouting or make him a non scout, come on Bob thats being pretty narrow minded even for you. If this behavior is ever repeated then you can lower the boom. I am sure Bob even you made serious mistakes in your youth, what you do or say to a troubled youth in a situation like this can either turn him around or turn him into a hardcore deliquent.

[Venividi]

 

"One mistake does not void ..."

 

I respect your postion that bringing and using drugs on a scout outing would be considered a mistake. However, I would not clasify it as such. A mistake is an error caused by carelessness, misunderstanding, or not knowing. Something such as forgetting to bring a necessary piece of gear, or doing the steps of a task in the wrong order.

 

I would consider the bringing and USING drugs on a scout outing as a willful defiance of the scout oath and law, and of the expectations of the other scouts. Not a mistake.

[Bob White]

I was not harsh to Eamonn, we simply see this differently. Venividi is spot on, and I am not playng God I am playing Scout Leader. I am not judging his right to a heavenly reward, I was one of the people involved in determining what was best for the scouts entrusted to me.

 

A person does not just go from being a person of values and suddenly decide "hey I think I'll bring marijuana on a scout outing". Lets be real about this. This youth abandoned his scouting values the moment he made the decsion to get the dope.

 

Just the same as a youth with membership in scouting who decides to shoplift quit being a scout not when he got caught, but when he made the decision to walk in the store and steal from the owner.

 

 

 

[evmori]

What's making me scratch my head is the rule sticklers are not following the rules! Shouldn't this Scout be reported to Council? I'm not for doing that but if I'm not mistaken, ain't them the rules?

 

 

[packsaddle]

I guess in my case it would be a 'rule bender' being a 'rule stickler', heh, heh. But I see the system as the best way to address the problem in the case of this class of 'poor decisions'.

Aside from violating the spirit of scouting, it is a serious crime that MUST be reported to the authorities (and here I mean the actual authorities, not just the council or CO).

My reasoning is that such a 'poor decision' by a boy indicates that most of the lessons he could have learned from the program may not have been effective and time is terribly short to turn him around. I side with the 'tough love' approach which includes handcuffs, fingerprints (not the MB), and perhaps a view of the inside of a jail cell. If his history, as reviewed by the court during PTI, indicates a first time offence, and if there is support for him by family, friends (CO and troop), and community, then this boy has a chance to turn things around. I have seen this happen and participated on a couple of occasions. The process allows the boy to 'grow up' very quickly over the course of hours, days, weeks, and months. Whether he remains part of scouting or not, turning him around is the important thing and I see the system working well, if a boy is capable of being turned around. So far, thankfully, I haven't personally seen a failure.

[OneHour]

Ed and Bob, y'all may help me find where it states that the Council needs to be notified. I looked and looked in the G2SS and all that I can come up with are the following sections:

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The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members.

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Member Responsibilities

All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit.

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Unit Responsibilities

Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members.

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit.

 

If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action.

 

The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member.

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The closest incidents that require notification to Council are "incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member."

 

I thought and thought about this and I would have to agree with our Committee's decision to suspend him; however, having the benefit of knowing this scout's behaviors and actions, I would also stand on the side of revoking his membership on two grounds: 1) I expect a whole lot more of an Eagle scout, the epitome of scouting and 2) what if one campout, he decides to get stoned again and with his beligerent nature, someone will get hurt.

 

By the way, he has everything that a boy would want and a good set of parents who are very devout to their religion. His father was an Eagle scout who will defend his son at every turn. So bad home life is probably not a good assumption.

 

Thanks for the advices and POV.

 

1Hour

 

ps: Let's close the thread. Somehow it will bounce back to me as the topic.

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Aside from violating the spirit of scouting, it is a serious crime that MUST be reported to the authorities (and here I mean the actual authorities, not just the council or CO).

 

Sorry, OneHour, but before we close da thread, I have to address packsaddle's repeated advice.

 

I think his advice can be fine, eh? There are times when a lad needs to be woken up by a scary encounter with the law.

 

BUT

 

I think folks should be aware that the high grades he gives to the local PTI program in his area is far more an exception than a rule in most jurisdictions. Many jurisdictions don't have alternate sentencing available at all. Many alternate sentencing programs will only put a lad with kids whose behavior goes far beyond smokin' a joint, and by so doing will be a worse influence on him.

 

Many jurisdictions won't even bother with a first offense marijuana possession beyond a hearing and a fine. Some jurisdictions will have a "tougher than tough love" judge who tosses a lad into county lockup. Many jurisdictions won't entertain prosecution based on a report filed by civilian volunteers without evidence confiscated by law enforcement with proper chain of custody.

 

So in da bigger world, the results you're gonna get from filin' a criminal complaint are going to be pretty durn unpredictable. If yeh know that you have a great local program like packsaddle's, and yeh have a personal relationship with the folks that administer it, by all means go for it.

 

Otherwise, I'd strongly caution you against it. Especially because, in a Boy Scouting or Venturing program it's very likely that the offense was committed in a different jurisdiction (and possibly a different state!) than your home county.

 

I'm still left wonderin' if da folks who are so eager to involve law enforcement would call the cops for a fight between two kids (battery), stealing a knife from someone's tent (theft), etc. These are all crimes too, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

I concur with Beavah's cautionary advice. I do know the programs and people in our area so I may fairly be more enthusiastic than I would be in another area.

And I admit that I do wrestle in my mind for a good answer to Beavah's last question. I guess, to sort of follow Beavah's lead on this, my answer is that it really is a judgement call that is greatly helped by knowing boys, their families, and their background.

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry guys, but other than "parodon the interruption" in ESPN, I have no idea what PTI means or how it relates in this conversation./ I thought if I waited long enough I could get it in context, but I can't

[OneHour]

OGE ... Pack was referring PTI as pre-trial intervention (see Beavah spunned thread).

 

... the last thing that we, as scouters, would want is to ruin a boy's life. We, as scouters and parents, will want to see the glass as "half full." Sometimes, the glass is truly "half emptied." It is a difficult judgement call. Hence the reason for my post and Beavah's thread is when do we know when to "fish or cut bait."

 

Cheers,

 

1Hour

 

ps: We will now conclude our broadcast ...

"And that's the way it is ..." (Walter Cronkite)

 

 

[Bob White]

I believe that are refering to Pre-Trial Intervention. A service that some communities have that offer alternative rehabilitative services for first time offenders.

 

It is a court service and not a scouting service. If the court has such services available and wishes to use them that's fine, but it has nothing to do with the responsibility of the the unit to the boy or the boy to the unit.

 

As for reporting it to the Council, in the case I mentioned we did that because it was a council event and not a unit event.

 

There are specific situations mentioned in the Guide to Safe Scouting where the council must be informed but they were not included in OneHour's post.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)