What do you do when kids completely undermine your authority?

[WildernesStudent]

 

We had a situation tonight that really aggravated everyone, an accident occurred and as we tried to deal with the situation like we were supposed to (two leaders take care of the injured person while everyone else gets the other kids away from the immediate area) the kids WOULD NOT listen!! It didnt matter what we said or did they were not listening and it made us realize that in reality we cant really do anything if they dont. We can suspend thembut that is supposed to be the last measure and what are we supposed to do, suspend all of them? Its one thing to tell the kids on the first day I am an authority its a complete other thing acting on itsome days they dont question us and others you have to fight for itit just seems to me there should be another way of handling it.

 

[thebigguy]

your right in that there realy is not a whole lot you can do to punish them, but thats becuse you shouldent need to. I have always been of the opinion that you can not simply tell a scout that you are the atority, and expect him to lisson to you. its all about respect and how you ask. its importent to not just tell a scout what to do, rather ask him questions or make suggestions, to guide him in to makeing the right choice. another better way to have control over your scouts is to let the SPL be the athority. the boys will respect his opinon and be more likely to lisson to him. you cant just tell them to go away becuse someones hurt, You need to have something for them to do, think on your feet theres always some kind of fun they can go have.

 

just remember that these kids sit in school all day lissoning to teachers, following the rules and lissoning to athority figures. they should be abule to come to scouts without fear of more rules.

[Stosh]

Emergency procedures should be taught BEFORE the accident rather than expecting them to miraculously know what to do naturally. Accidents draw looky-loos all the time. The boys are only acting like everyone else would have done without proper processes in place. Where were the PL's at this time? Why weren't they dealing with their patrols? Where was your SPL and ASPL? Maybe emergency preparation should be something more than just a MB class that the boys sit through to get credit for an Eagle requirement.

 

In emergency situations, emotions run high and expectations are unjustly placed on the boys that haven't been properly taught. I wonder whether this is an issue of authority or an issue of the lack of emergency prep training?

 

It doesn't sound like the boys were properly prepared to handle a true emergency. Obviously this in theory is what we are supposed to be teaching our boys. Maybe the first aid training we do should be understood as real training and not just requirement fulfillment.

 

Stosh

 

 

[evmori]

Why not suspend all the Scouts in a leadership position? Sounds like you need to make a point.

 

I agree with Stosh about emergency procedures being taught ahead of time. I also understand there are probably boys who are new to the unit who haven't learned them yet but the SPL & PL's should have been the one to take the lead & it sounds like they didn't.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Of coruse I am coudl be way off base here, but isnt WildernesStudent a non-scouting college student checking in here for advice?

 

 

[scoutldr]

My understanding from previous posts is that Wildernesstudent is a youth advisor in a non-scouting organization.

[FScouter]

We teach boys first aid skills and expect they will apply the knowledge when a situation arises. I would not expect that when an accident occurs they would simply get out of the way.

[thebigguy]

im just not sure what suspending the leadership is going to do, exept piss of the scouts. you are supost to be someone to look up to, not someone to be feard. in my opinion we need to let the kids learn from there mistakes. what do thay learn from being suspended...and more so, do you realy think they will come back after they are suspended?

[thebigguy]

now we are off topic. In responce to the origanal question.

 

try not to show your aggracation, I would at the next meeting show the boys how it should work. then rather then telling them what they did wrong, ask them what they think they could have done better. chances are they will see there falts and do better next time.

 

we feal your pain... sometimes working with youth can be aggravating, you just have to make sure that the fun you have always outways the aggravation.

 

otherwise you will not give it your all and the program will suffer

 

 

[WildernesStudent]

"My understanding from previous posts is that Wildernesstudent is a youth advisor in a non-scouting organization."

 

True enough. I am leader in a non-scouting organization for middle-schoolers.

 

Let me start by stating that as far as medical emergencies go (if it doesnt require an ambulance that is) out hands are tied, all we can do is keep the child quiet (by getting the other kids away from him/her) and call the parents/guardians.

 

I would think as far as telling them what they should do in case of an emergency wouldn't be an issue...all they have to do is listen to us, which we made very clear at the beginning of the year (easier said then done!).

 

The problem was that the children wouldn't get out of the way and wouldn't listen to what we were telling them and in the process caused their hurt friend to panic and us to get really irritated...it doesn't seem like this should be an issue, we had 9 leaders and about 20 kids but it was. This not listening bug lasted the rest of the eavening (they would not play games, they would not break into their small groups, they would not put away their cells phoens...which btw they know they can't have)

 

Leadership, no doubt, will be talking it over in our weekly meeting as well as going back over the policies with us leaders and then we will have to go over the rules with the kids again as well. I just hope that this incident didnt show the kids that they dont have to listen to us and that we cant do anything if they dont listen. otherwise the rest of the year is going to be lots of fun.

 

We did end up suspending two children (I think it was) But we dont like to use suspension to threaten them with. I do know that unless they improve drastically there will be no hiking!

 

Tell me though, what are SPL & PL's? Are they children in the troop who are in a leadership positions like helpers? Because what we have discovered is if you get one of these kids on your side they will more then help you convince their peers! This might be something we could look intomaking different kids the helpers for a specific day they could make sure their friends obeyed the rules, encourage them to play the games and help out when we divide into small groupshmm.

 

[Stosh]

If you are an adult leader of any youth group, I would suggest registering in the BSA and take the adult leadership training. If you are going to be with groups of kids that you expect to show maturity and knowledge of adult situations, the training will go a long way. I use my BSA training in other areas of my life where I am a leader in other non-scouting youth organizations.

 

Stosh

[thebigguy]

the senior Patrol leader, and patrol leader are youth elected positions.

 

the large group is devided into groups of around 6 to 12 scouts.

each of these smaller groups elects a group leader. " patrol leader"

 

in charge of the meeting to meeting oporation of the troop is the senior patrol leader.

he is elected by the entire troop, and the patrol leaders report to him.

[CalicoPenn]

7 leaders couldn't handle 19 members (assuming 2 of the 9 leaders were dealing with 1 injured member).

 

I can envision a few different reasons why your group couldn't gain and keep control. The first is that there is no one "supreme" adult leader that the other adult leaders defer to in times of crisis, either that, or s/he was dealing with the injured member rather than delegating that task to someone else and taking charge of the main body of the group. In time of crisis, there should be one person who is in overall charge and everyone else defers to that person - or in the case of Scouting - 2 people - one adult, and one youth, though that youth member still defers to the adult - and those are the Scoutmaster and the Senior Patrol Leader. The ASM's and other adults follow the directions of the Scoutmaster, and the SPL relays the directions of the Scoutmaster to the PL's and gets the unit organized - there is no real reason for an ASM to start hollering commands to a group of Patrol Leaders - even in an emergency, the PLC is still the proper chain of command to go through - the difference now is the Scoutmaster now steps into his rarely used role of being the "ultimate, buck stops here, I'm making the final decision, let's get to it" role. While there is a natural reaction to being "lookie-lou's" at accidents, it can be overcome quickly with decisive, and coordinated action by the leaders.

 

Another reason the leaders may have lost control is that the leaders lost control of themselves. By this I mean that instead of acting in a calm, cool and collected manner, they went into panic mode. I don't know your situation so can't say that this was the problem - just tossing it out there as something to watch for. When the leaders panic, the youth will panic, and it will take some time before a panicking youth can come under control again, if they're dealing with an adult leader they just saw panic themselves.

 

Another possible way for the adult leaders to lose control of themselves is if they go into screaming mode to get the youth's attention. Once that has happened, youth tend to be impossible to really properly control - they've seen the screaming, and they laugh at it. What is needed is leaders to take control in a calm, and authoritative manner - that doesn't mean yelling, it means making a declarative statement with an expectation in one's voice that it will be done, there will be no questions, and there will be consequences (unspoken) if the directions are not followed. It souldn't be a "You Will" statement, either, but an "I Need You To" statement, such as "I need all of you to follow Ms. Smith and Ms. Jones to the other room, right now." No please, no thank you, no begging - just a factual statement of your expectations. The time for thank you is later when the situation has calmed down and you can take a few moments to tell everyone that Mary or Bobbie will be ok, and to thank them for being cooperative.

 

Once it got beyond control, though - it's just about over. The solution then is to drop your planned program, contain their rambuctiousness as best as you can to a small area, and have as many of the other leaders as you can start making calls to their parents to come pick up their chldren - just tell the parents that there was an accident with one of the other children, that person is fine, but the meeting is cancelled for the rest of the night.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Calico

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm....

 

Calico, jblake and others all demonstrate their real depth of knowledge here, eh? They've given great advice.

 

Problem is it's really hard to transport their knowledge into your circumstances and brain, Wilderness.

 

We have some real advantages as BSA leaders. We know da kids over a long period of time, and can draw on those relationships. We have kids of different ages, who can be used as helpers and assistants.

 

Don't know what your program is, but most middle school outdoor programs are usually short-time things, with no pre-established relationships or youth leaders. Dat's much harder, eh? Now you're talkin' about schoolteacher-type management skills. Yeh have to slow down, be less active, and establish norms and rules and authority up-front. Tone and style in doin' that sort of thing is an art in a lot of ways, and you're at a disadvantage being a young person. You're at a real disadvantage if yeh became informal "buddies" with 'em too fast. But yeh can pick up generic books like Harry Wong's that talk about the basics of managing groups like that, eh?

 

Even better, find an older adult who can coach yeh, or who you can watch as they handle a group of kids. If your college has an education school or your program has some senior staff, or there are youth museums or such in your town, check with folks like that.

 

Remember, though, kids are kids. They aren't built to sit still or listen, and even when they listen we don't always talk so that they understand. That's just kids! If we are havin' difficulty, it really is our problem as adults to learn more and do better on. No point to blamin' the kids for bein' what they are.

 

Don't suspend 'em. Think how to change what you're doin' to improve.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[WildernesStudent]

Wellbasically this organization was created by and run by the student at my schoolits been around for like 10 years (not long if you compare it to BSA but good I think considering) those in charge of it the main leadership are seniors there are about eight of them and then all-together about 30 leaders (which are separated between our program and the program for the High school age children which the middle-schoolers can graduate too) Main leadership isnt there to make friends with the kids, but to enforce the rules and take care of all that fun stuff: medical release forms, permission slips for activities, phone numbers of parents, dates and times of activities, activity planning our schedules, who is suspended or not, our finances, laws and regulations etc

 

Basically though, we meet with the kids two hours one day a week after school and then twice a month for extra activities (they have done everything from week long retreats to a night of bowling) a couple years ago the program disappeared (the leadership all graduated and there was not enough staff) it resurfaced only recently (which is why we are financially tight right now as well) and that is where the problems may infact lie.

 

The whole purpose of the program is to develop relationships with the middle-school aged kids in the community and become a positive role model in their lives (most leaders are in the program for four years so the kids you get usually graduate to high school before you leave) This said we dont want to come off as the authoritarian, but there has to be rules and if there are we are the ones that have to enforce them. We go over the basic rules with the kids at the beginning of the year I think they are pretty simple: no cell phones, no inappropriate talk/behavior and listen to us when we tell you to do something.

 

Lol, let me also state that we are not by any means an outdoor program (lord no!) I dont think the worlds ready for us to let them lose yet. Seriously though, they are generally well behaved and we had talked about taking them to experience some of the outdoors (these are inner town kids) I know in the past they had taken some camping before, but from what I heard they basically screamed all night. We had talked about taking them hiking sometimethe question there was how many leaders to take, where to take them and how to establish and keep our authority once we were actually in the middle of the hike (dont go off the path, dont push each other, dont poke each other with sticks, no running ahead, dont pick up that snake it is not a pet, that is poison ivy dont touch it. And dont throw it at each other, dont dump your water out, dont take off your shows, dont step in the creek, dont drink the creek water and the ever so famous GET OFF YOUR CELL PHONE!!)

 

I do know that main leadership at the end of this year will be completely gone and the fear is that even if leadership (such as myself) takes over, the program will once again disappearIts a very heavy job and I personally think that it might be better to have adults in those positions but it isnt up to meif you have any more ideas or tips that would be great!