what to do when scoutmaster needs disipline

[Bob White]

GW

What you and Ed suggest is not even close to what the YP training directs leaders to do. I cannot believe that any adult could take that training and come away with that attitude. What exactly is your understanding of an adult leaders responsibility if they suspect a scout is being physically abused?

[evmori]

Bob,

I have taken and taught YP and nowhere does it tell you to jump to conclusion & make accusations. The statement I made is based on common sense which is the core of YP. I'm not going to accuse anyone of abusing a child if I don't have some sort of proof. That would be irresponsible.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

Hi Cheffy -What's Cooking?

 

To be very honest I'm not sure what you should do?

As we see the debate about reporting is going on.

But... From what you have posted all you have is hear say and secondhand information.

It does seem that maybe your former PL might want to think about looking for another Troop?

However not knowing all the details about the Troop he is in and why he stays there? This might be a bit of a jump.

I have to admit to not hearing reports that seem a little over the top. While the SM's son may well have burnt the Scout next to him with a hot fork? Branding?? Might be a bit strong. Of course I wasn't there and really don't know the full facts.

If you are close to this former Scout, you might want to phone his parents and get their side of the story.

If things are as bad as they sound? You could tell them what options are open to them. Kinda lay out who they should contact and let them know how things work.

I'm not sure but maybe if this SM is as bad as it might seem? And the Lad's parents agree, but still seem unsure of what to do? You could contact the Council that they are now in? I'm not sure how kindly they (The Council) would take to someone 600 miles away calling?

My take on reporting child abuse within the BSA is that if we suspect it we are to report it to the SE.

I think being so far away and only having the word of a youth member? I'd need more information before I'd make a move.

If and I do say if there is a problem a report from people who are closer to home would carry more weight.

The "Branding" report makes me wonder if the verbal and physical abuse might be a little over the top? While wearing my parent hat. I don't agree with paddling or smacking my kid, I know of several parents who do. This doesn't necessarily make them guilty of child abuse or even bad parents.

Of course some people will disagree. I seem to remember that there have been several cases in different courts about this.

Eamonn.

 

[Beavah]

Let me just remind folks that there are really two very different things that go by the popular name of "abuse."

 

One is child abuse. As a general rule of thumb, child abuse can only be committed by a parent or guardian (or perhaps state-licensed child care worker). It has special legal status because a parent or guardian has legal control over the child, and the child is dependent on them for its health and welfare. For that reason, there are special rules to encourage or require reporting, since otherwise the parents' control over the child would make it very difficult to discover. There's also a special, confidential investigating arm in Children's Services departments, to handle investigations based solely on reports of suspicion, in ways that try to protect families if the suspicion is unfounded, and that protect da person reporting from civil actions for defamation.

 

When a scouter has reasonable suspicion of child abuse, YPT instructs us to contact children's services.

 

The second is physical/sexual abuse of a child by another (non-custodial) adult like a scout leader. This is generally not child abuse, but another set of crimes including battery. It does not have special status under the law. There are no reporting requirements, and no civil suit immunity for people who make reports. There is no confidential investigative arm that tries to protect individuals if the suspicions are unfounded. These things are handled by law enforcement aka the police. Complaints are public records, that are typically reviewed daily by news media.

 

When a scouter has reasonable suspicion of physical/sexual abuse within Scouting, YPT instructs us to contact the council Scout Executive (or, for unit activities, the CO's reporting officer).

 

Naturally, in either case, when there is direct evidence or a child's credible report of abuse, we protect the kids and call law enforcement. But how we handle suspicion is a different thing, eh? There we are rightly told not to play cop or investigator or to run about makin' accusations. We are to hand the situation off to the folks most capable of investigatin' and responding appropriately and sensitively. Childrens' Services for child abuse. The Scout Executive or CO Reporting Officer for sexual/physical abuse within Scouting.

 

There was more discussion on this thread:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=169589

 

Hope that helps folks understand the why behind YPT trainin'.

 

The above explanation talks about general principles across multiple states, which is all da national YPT syllabus can do, eh? The statutes and case law in each state are different. Nothing here or in any internet forum or in any BSA training syllabus should be considered a formal legal opinion, or be relied on as legal advice.

 

Your YPT trainin' should include a briefing by local council folks (although I've found many local councils do a very poor job of this, unfortunately). Even that should not be considered legal advice. In individual cases, things can be complex, especially for stuff that happens at summer camp in a few states.

 

If yeh want good legal advice, yeh go to a good attorney in your jurisdiction. Or, yeh just follow YPT, now that you understand the reasons for it, and make da SE earn his salary! Report within-scoutin' physical/sexual abuse to da SE, report child abuse or neglect by a custodial adult to Children's Services.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

I believe you may be incorrect in your terms Beavah, The YP training speaks of Child Neglect and Child Abuse.

 

Child Neglect is the withholding of basic care such as food, shelter and clothing, and usually involves the parent, guardian, or even a care giver such as a day care worker or even a Scout leader who for instance was neglegent in the care of scouts in his or her care.

 

Child Abuse is normally divided into three categories; Phycical Abuse, Emotional Abuse, and Child Sexual Abuse.

 

The BSA Youth Protection programs focus on Physical and Sexual Abuse, and help both youth and adult understand how to recognize, resist and report suspected abuse. The resist part is of course taught to the youth. In replacement of tha portion adults are taught of the barriers both recommended and required by the BSA to help prevent abuse opportunities in a scouting envirnment.

For more info I recommend the retaking of the BSA YP program on-line or with an approved trainer.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

Nah, BobWhite, I'm not at all incorrect on my terms, eh? But I am simplifyin' a bit to help you and others understand a very important principle of BSA YP reportin' that yeh seem to have missed in your training. Now yeh know what to look for when you take your refresher trainin' this year, eh?

 

One of the hard things is that BSA YPT spends about 10 minutes out of the hour on such things, eh? Ten minutes of bare-bones trainin' is hardly the definitive word on such a subject, eh? If you or anyone else is interested in improvin' your real knowledge of the topic rather than just quotin' such a weak source, I'd encourage you to do so by pursuin' deeper trainin' on such things outside of the BSA. That can be a wonderful way to bring better insight to your troop or district, and develop a base of knowledge that makes you less likely to inadvertently give folks poor or incomplete advice.

 

But sure, if yeh want, we can add terms.

 

For reasonable suspicion of child abuse or neglect (committed by a custodial adult typically outside of scoutin' but discovered in scouting), report to Children's Services. The abuse part can be physical, sexual (which is physical, eh?), or (in some states) emotional. The neglect can also be either physical or (in some states) emotional.

 

For reasonable suspicion of battery, sexual battery, gross sexual imposition, statutory rape, or any of a dozen other crimes against children (committed by a non-custodial adult like a scout leader, and during scouting events), report to the council Scout Executive and/or the CO reporting officer. In general, "emotional abuse" is not a crime in this context and is more a case of poor adult leadership, which naturally should also be reported to da person's supervisor (CO, Camp Director, SE, etc.).

 

That's what BSA's Youth Protection training says, and in general terms for a 10-minute training session, it's good advice. Yeh should encourage folks to follow it.

 

As far as the other stuff you mention, perhaps it belongs in another thread, eh, rather than bringin' in all the different components of YPT to this thread that just raised a very narrow question about reporting.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Actually the BSA YP training only defines neglect, it spends no time on identifying or reporting it. BSA focuses on physical and sexual abuse in all of its YP programs, and spends far more than 10 minutes discussing some of the physical and behavoral traits often seen in abuse victims. The BSA YP training also tells adults how to report abuse or suspected abuse when they have a reasonable suspicion.

 

It also explains how to talk with the youth without being an inquisitor and without making the child feel at fault for the suspected abuse.

 

I find it interesting that you and others are concerned about how a well meaning but incorrect reporting will damage the family unit. The training addresses this point specifically.

 

First the abuse may very well be at the hands of someone other than a parent.

 

Secondly, it is not your responsibility to first be a witness or wait for absolute proof, it is your responsibility for the welfare of the child to report your suspicians. You can tell the agency why you suspect. They have additional training to determine the next step. The Scout leaders role is to be informed of the signs of abuse and to report their suspicions.

 

And thirdly, putting aside the discomfort of the family ...what about the welfare of the youth possibly being abused.

 

To make a report for the purpose of harrassing a person could result in civil or criminal charges. But persons who report based on resonable suspicion are protected in much the same way that a person who gives first aid to a victim is.

 

I am unsure where you received your YP training but it is very different than the training needed by, and provided to, adults and leaders in the BSA.

 

Is the training effective? Nine years ago using the knowledge gained for BSA YP training, I was involved in the removing a volunteer from the BSA for behavior that violated the YP safeguards. The parents in the argued for his reinstatement (we did not tell them why he was removed...he did), I was threatend with a lawsuit by him, as were others who were involved. He threatened the council with a law suit. He also tried to stay in contact with the unit, for which he was threatened with arrest.

 

Three months ago he was on our local news for his arrest for over a dozen charges of child sexual abuse upon students at a school where he was a substitute teacher. He has since plead guilty and is awaiting sentencing.

 

It took 9 years for the community to discover what the BSA Youth Protection program saw. Think of how many scouts might have abused by this animal had the YP program not trained the volunteer leaders sufficiently.

 

I am confident that anyone who reviews the content of the training will discover that Beavah has confused his terminology as well as his description of the training program.

 

The BSA adult Youth Protection training is available on-line. If you take it from a live trainer check with your council to make sure they have been approved by the Council Scout Executive to teach the course.

[LongHaul]

Bob White, in all you training both in taking it and giving it where have you found that a Scout Executive is considered a "proper authority" as it concerns reporting a suspected crime? Telling your SE about your suspicions or observations is no different that telling your local new paper in the eyes of the law. Check with a legal authority NOT in the employ of the BSA with regard to reporting a possible criminal act to someone other that "the proper authority" as it pertains to your personal liability.

LongHaul

[Bob White]

Longhaul,

 

You are incorrect regarding this reporting procedure. If you recall the YP training you might have recieved, if the suspected abuse took place on BSA property, or during a unit activity, you are required by the BSA to contact the Council Scout Executive in the council where the abuse took place...first.

 

One reason for this is that reporting agencies vary. Your training gave you a contact number for the appropriate agency in you State or community. But abuse must be reported to the appropriate authority in the state or community where the abuse took place. Calling the local council Scout executive will insure that the correct authority is contacted for that vicinity. The local Scout Executive will then instruct you how to proceed.

 

Scout Executives have additional training in this area and often have established contacts in the community that most unit leaders probably do not have. Child abuse of this type affects more than just the one child, it can have a devestating effect on other scouts in the unit and parents as well. The SE can help you, the Scout, his family, and the unit, with support from local resources to help everyone deal with this tragic crime.

 

This information is explained in the BSA Youth Protection Training and is available on-line, the BSA recommends this training be re-newed at least every three years. I think more frequently is better.

[Beavah]

Sigh.

 

That's quite a confused muddle, BW. It becomes very difficult to respond to in any coherent way, eh? Which is why I suggested takin' a more general discussion of YP to a new thread, eh?

 

In the issue of reporting, I'm givin' folks the straight story. I'm sorry you don't understand it, but I reckon most of da other folks readin' will.

 

I'd caution you a bit about bein' quite so declarative about things you don't seem to have much background in. You did somethin' similar in the thread on self-chartered units, where yeh really muddled up association law. I'd also caution you again about narrow reliance on BSA materials. Da BSA Handbook and Fieldbook are good, eh? But we'd still welcome insight from pros at REI about fitting a backpack.

 

Of course nobody is suggesting not caring for youth who might be at risk, eh? Certainly I'm not. I'm just explaining how to care for youth who might be at risk. The reasons do include not doing harm to innocent adults. I believe that's an important value, too, as does the BSA. Da reasons also include not inadvertently exposing yourself and the BSA to liabilities for doing harm to innocent adults.

 

Like you, I have been involved in the removal of volunteers (and paid staff), but sadly quite a few more than just one. Such things are challenging in a number of ways, and not something an average volunteer should have to deal with. Which is why we recommend the things we do in training, as I have described.

 

Beavah

 

[FScouter]

Gee, what happened to "friendly" and "courteous"?

 

Lots of advice here, facts perhaps, opinions for sure, lots of legalistic mumbo-jumbo, follow BSA YP training, forget it it's a bunch of hooey, even advice to to nothing unless you have "proof". What's the average den leader or Scoutmaster to do??

 

My personal choice is to ignore all the noise and go with what I learned in BSA youth protection training.

[LongHaul]

The local Scout Executive will then instruct you how to proceed.?????

 Bob White, while you seem quite good at reading BSA publications and retaining what the training tapes and on line courses contain you seem unable to read things that are not published by National. My post refereed to Legal interpretations not BSA interpretations. If a crime is committed on my front lawn I am not legally empowered to decide what course of action should be taken. The SE has no legal standing in the community. He or she is a citizen just like you and I.

Secondly before you continue to quote BSA scripture try actually reading the Federal Child Abuse Act and find out just what constitutes Child Abuse. Find out just who can commit child abuse as it relates to a specific child. I think you will find that most of the things you are referring to are actually criminal assault and criminal battery and not child abuse under the existing law. Again the SE has no legal standing an reporting a criminal matter to the SE does not guarantee you immunity under the law.

 LongHaul

[Bob White]

I gave one example of a situation I believe was a strong example to support the value of the training. I am sorry to hear that you have had multiple situations in one council. That would appear to be further evidence that more effort needs to be put into selecting quality leaders.

 

I believe you will find that in every case I have directed readers to the discover the actual BSA training. I am confident that once they take (or in some cases re-take) the training it will become clear to them as to what information shared in this thread was accurate and what was not.

 

Reporting suspected abuse endangers neither the reporter or the BSA unless you do so incorrectly. This is explained in the BSA YP training as you most likely know due to your self-attested familiarity with the material.

 

The fact that the subject is challenging is why the BSA offers training on the topic. So far little you have shared resembles the content of the BSA YP training, But I am willing to let others reacquaint themselves with the material and make that decision themselves.

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

follow BSA YP training, forget it it's a bunch of hooey, even advice to to nothing unless you have "proof".

 

Yah, hmmm....

 

Sorry F. Read da whole thread. Couldn't find anybody who said to forget YP training it's a bunch of hooey. Couldn't find any advice that said to do nothing unless you have "proof." Unless you yourself are advocatin' those positions? In which case, I disagree.

 

YP trainin' is fairly good, given the constraints its designers were under.

 

What's a Scouter to do? Follow it, with understanding. Continue to seek out new information and more training and work to learn even more, eh? Because that's the sort of examples we want to be for the kids - lifelong learners who are self-motivated to seek real understanding. And who know that a half-hour online course probably isn't the last word on a subject. We wouldn't want to be ones who just check off a requirement once and then forget about it, eh?

 

And, if as a Scouter you get in the soup and are lookin' down the barrel of a problem that yeh know is too big for you, seek help from a competent professional in your area.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White]

Longhaul,

 

What State law says that you have to report the suspicion to them first? None. They just say if your are mandated to report and who you need to report to. But they do not say that you must call them first.

 

So reporting to the SE under the BSA's stated conditions does not violate any law.