Difficult topic to discuss with youth

[acco40]

All, while not a member of our troop, a young man, an Eagle Scout, who counseled some of our boys with their eagle project recently passed away (suicide). The boys he counseled are aware of his passing but not the whole troop. My plan was to inform the committee (adults) but not the Scouts directly (leave it up to their parents).

 

Anyone have any opinions on how to best handle this delicate situation?

[scoutldr]

I see no reason to inform those with whom he was not directly involved. This might be a good time, however to discuss the disease of depression as part of Personal Fitness.

[Eamonn]

I really feel so very sad for the parents and friends of this young man.

As for our role?

I whole heartedly believe that even though it's not easy to talk about we do need to take teenage suicide as seriously as we take drug abuse and safe driving practices.

Teenage suicide is is one of the leading causes of death for teenagers - its the third leading cause.

We had a Scout in our District who may have committed. suicide.(He might have been trying Autoerotic asphyxia for sexual pleasure)

Because of this I did buy Adolescent Suicide: Assessment And Intervention a book by by Alan L. Berman, David A. Jobes, and Morton M. Silverman.

As some of the Scouts are aware what happened, I feel that any effort to try and keep it quite is not going to work.

Sadly at times we seem to attach some sort of blame on the suicide victim. This is not a good thing.

Not all suicides are planned and many could be prevented if we know and teach the signs.

I happen to believe that meeting and dealing with the subject head on is something that we as an organization should and must be doing. I wish it was included in the training's we over Scout Leaders and Venturers.

Eamonn.

[scottteng]

I would recommend informing all youth that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and that if they are having thoughts of harming themselves that this is not normal but a symptom of a mental illness and to seek help and counseling. There are hot-lines available and referral's available. Depression is an illness and responds well to treatment. Also all family and close friends there is help available for all mental illness. http://www.nami.org/

[acco40]

Let me clarify, the person who passed away was an adult who counseled some of our youth as they worked on their Eagle projects. My guess, he was in his late twenties. Don't know details (depression, how, why, etc.) and was not a close friend.

 

However, similar to religion, sex issues, etc. I feel this is best handled by parents, especially with the younger Scouts.

[GernBlansten]

Honesty is the best advise here. Give the troop (adults and scouts) an honest, non-judgmental assessment of the situation. Express your personal feelings and let each decide how to deal with it. I like the advise that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

[packsaddle]

If a boy asks a question, I try to respond...if only to admit I don't know the answer. In this case, however, 'knowledge' is something that might be elusive. I also would refer the boys to their parents if it gets into very sensitive topics. But if I was going to discuss these things with the boys, I'd try it out with a group of adults first. If I was successful with the adults then there's a chance I could navigate the minds of the boys. However, if I had difficulty with the adults, no way would I bring it to the boys.

 

Same with new drugs and recipes. Try them on adults first. If they survive then they're possibly safe for younger persons.

If the adults don't survive, then oh well, look on the bright side...fewer geezers and the children are safe. Have a nice day.

[Eamonn]

"However, similar to religion, sex issues, etc. I feel this is best handled by parents"

 

I have to disagree.

We just can not turn our back on this.

Too many kids are killing themselves.

We need to treat this just as we treat drug abuse and unsafe driving.

Passing the buck is just not acceptable.

"To keep myself physically strong,.." is at the very core of what we are about.

Far more important that we the adults know the signs and how to help a teenager not commit suicide than be able to do a few pull-ups??

How can we turn a "Blind eye" to the the third leading cause of death in the age group we are serving?

Ea.

 

[packsaddle]

Eamonn, I understand your comment was not directed to me but I do have some concerns regarding this topic, based on personal experiences. We all share an interest in preventing tragedies like this.

My concern is that a poorly crafted interaction with the boys on this topic could very well draw their curiosity and attention to it more strongly, if only to discuss among themselves the best ways to do the deed. My advice is extreme care in the manner in which we engage in such conversations with boys. While we may be clear in our own mind regarding thoughts on this topic, it is extremely unlikely that we will understand what is happening in the mind of a boy, much less during conversations on this topic. I'm not advocating silence but rather to engage the boys very carefully, supporting and maintaining parental priority.

If Acco40 or anyone else is uncomfortable with such conversations, or if they are not confident of their ability to engage the boys, then they probably shouldn't. Rather, talk to the parents first and see what the parents think need to be said.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Lisabob]

I find I have to agree with packsaddle in terms of specifics. I think it is one thing to let the scouts know that someone they've interacted with has passed away and to have a moment of silence or something along those lines. But in terms of specifics, these are very, very difficult conversations to have with a diverse group of boys. In fact I don't think a group discussion of a specific case is the best way to go. It is one thing to talk about depression and suicide with a group in the abstract (still difficult to do well and not something everyone is well equipped to pull off). It is another to talk about a particular incident without losing focus. You may mean to convey one message to the group, but boys of different ages, backgrounds, personal experiences may get hung up on the details, may pick up on odd angles or just plain misunderstand, who knows what. And in a larger group, those who have something serious to say/ask are less likely to do it.

 

So while I wouldn't advocate sweeping the general situation under the rug, I'd say any lengthy discussion is probably better handled individually. And I agree that keeping parents in the loop is important too. I know that if someone from the troop planned to have that conversation with my son, I would want to be at least aware of it so I could follow up and keep an eye on how he was dealing with it at home too.

[BadenP]

I would strongly suggest you bring in an expert speaker on suicide to talk to the kids, few scouters are really qualified to do this adequately. Second when a person commits suicide the family should be entitled to privacy and no details of this suicide should be discussed with the teens or adults, its a matter of courtesy and respect for the deceased.

 

I like the idea of discussing the topic as part of the personal fitness mb or something similiar. The bottom line is you don't want to start rumors flying or inhibit teens from freely talking about their own feelings regarding this issue. This is a very real and serious issue among teens and adults and should be handled as such.

[Eamonn]

I'm sorry packsaddle, of course I wasn't directing my comments at anyone specific.

I really should have started a new thread.

Putting aside the people that acco40 mentions.

 

We as an organization can do some things well when we want too!!

Scouting for food works.

It does a lot to help people who without might go hungry.

Youth Protection seems to work.

I wish that it didn't seem to dwell on sexual abuse as much as it does, but it works.

The movies are good and we are getting the message across to the youth members and the adults.

It might be argued that the Second Class requirement:

"Participate in a school, community, or troop program on the dangers of using drugs, alcohol, and tobacco and other practices that could be harmful to your health."

Could cover suicide prevention?

I really think we (As a organization) need to do more to help prevent teenage suicide.

Many of the teenagers who attempt suicide are having problems at home, many come from families with problems and a lot are not active in any religious organization / Church.

So saying discuss this at a "Family Meeting"? Or with your Preacher is not going to work.

Going back to acco40 and his situation.

I'm a little unsure why there is a need to tell anyone?

If people find out about it that's up to them.

It might be that because of this the Scouts do bring up the subject of suicide, some might even say that they have at times thought about it. (This is not unusual in teenagers.)

We or at least most of us are not equipped to deal with deeply troubled youth.

But if we recognize the signs, if we can be a real friend to these youth we can do a lot to prevent them harming themselves.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

Yes Eamonn, I agree. The tragic fact of suicide is unavoidable in the news and probably in conversations among some of the teens. And I especially agree with your comment about listening to them. I think we always need to listen, and I mean really listen...in the deepest possible sense...to their thoughts - regardless of the topic. They can sense this and having someone they look up to listen to them, really listen, makes a huge difference. It makes them know they matter and that, in itself, could help prevent these tragedies.

[ScoutOne]

This is not the best place to discuss such a delicate matter.

 

I would strongly recommend contacting your county mental health services. Most have staff with experience in handling this. Alternatively, most schools or school districts have a school psychologist 'on call' during the summer.

 

Eventually people will find out something happened and the information may not be accurate. It is more respectful to have accurate information for those who ask early on instead of facilitating rumors. The unwillingness to discuss such tragedies is just another example of our society sweeping depression and suicide under the rug.

[Eamonn]

Hi ScoutMKE,

Welcome to the forum.

I think I'm doing a very bad job of saying that I really think we as youth leaders need to know and be able to recognize early signs that might show a youth member is thinking of harming him or herself.

All too often if the signs go un-noticed it's too late to call in the professional help that the youth so desperately needs.

I do think if I were in acco40's situation I would opt to do nothing.

The young man is not a member of the unit and it really has nothing to do with the unit.

If a Scout asked me about it? I tend to think I would mention how very sad it is and highlight what all the good that this young man had done.

If this opened the door to a conversation about suicide I would be as open and honest as possible, informing the Scout that if he ever needed to talk to anyone that I'm here for him.

Eamonn.