Moms or Dads what is the difference?

[LongHaul]

In that thread about the Dad insisting that his sons sleep in a tent with him Lisabob posted some things I think we should look at. She asked what the reaction would be if it had been a mom and not a dad. She said;

>>And I'm equally sure that it would be harder for any boy who did that(Sleep in a tent with his mother on a camp out) to be taken seriously as a leader by his peers.

>>As a mom and one of rather few women involved with my son's troop, I've been very careful about being perceived as, well, "mothering" my son too much at scout events.

>>I seldom camp with the troop because he asked me not to and I respect that this is his experience, his time to be independent from me.

There are still many male leaders out there that rue the day females were allowed to register as leaders. I know some that would rather see the Organization fold then have female scoutmasters. My father almost had a heart attack when he found out a woman had received the Vigil honor. Bottom line is without female leaders BSA would not survive. LDS would have a program and some sections of the country would provide the opportunity but in most urban areas female leadership is needed to offset the drop in males giving their time.

Are we willing tosay that Boy Scouts is a place for a Boy to bond with his Father but not his Mother? Are we saying that as Boy Scouts and as Scout Leaders we accept that male leaders and female leaders should be perceived differently based on gender? Unless we are ready to say no boys can go on a campout ifhis father is going and visa versa then we have to accept that somebodys Mom might be on the campout. If I wont allow them to treat me like Bills Dad and I wont allow them to treat Bill like the SMs son then how can I not address a lack of respect shown to a female leader? If I found out that one of my scouts had asked his mother not to come on campouts because he was embarrassed it would definitely be time for a Scoutmasters conference.

Are we actually ready to say a Father can go on a campout and resist being a parent to his child but a Mother can not?

LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[Lisabob]

LongHaul, I think I may not have been quite clear enough. My son actually asked both my husband and I not to be constant presences in his troop experience. You see, we were heavily involved in cubs because - due to a major leadership meltdown - we and another family ended up organizing and running practically everything the pack did for about a year. Even after we succeeded in bringing others on board to revive the pack, we still were very involved. So when he crossed over, his explicit request for a little space was understandable. And in reality, that only affected me because almost all the troop stuff happens on nights when my husband is working, and besides, my husband does not like camping. I do. So I've tried to respect his request, which honestly I think was fairly reasonable. He's an only child and spends a lot of time with adults as it is. In fact he often seems more comfortable with adults than with other kids. So one of the reasons I wanted him in scouts was and remains the socialization aspect and in order for that to happen he needs some space.

 

So, it wasn't so much a gender issue as a parental issue. But yeah, when I do camp with the troop, I'm 100% sure my son would be horrified if I made him tent with me. He'd probably quit rather than have to do that twice.

 

As for the question of whether moms and dads are perceived differently? Yes, without a doubt I think we are. It may be inaccurate or unfair (or, I suppose some will argue, exactly why women shouldn't be involved, though I don't agree) but there's no denying it. We have women who are active ASMs and some of them kick the butts of any of the guys in terms of skill. The boys recognize that and so do most of the adults. We also have both moms and dads who are either committee members or not leaders at all, who occasionally camp with the troop. These are the folks, of either gender, who are the most prone to being over-involved and need to be reined in/taught by a good SM or ASM.

 

But I do think there's still an attitude from some people where if a woman raises a complaint about things like inappropriate language, bullying, etc.., that this is viewed as "mothering" in the over-protective sense and consequently the concern is sometimes discounted. And that I find unfortunate because it makes it harder for us, as Scouters, to improve the troop program.

 

Blech - too long a post. Sorry, haven't had my morning coffee & the brain's not going full bore yet.

 

 

 

[Hunt]

It's my observation that on average, mothers are more protective of their children, fearful of risks, concerned about eating properly, concerned about cleanliness, etc. In fact, I would say that the averages are strongly skewed in this direction. As a result, it is not really unreasonable for boys to have an expectation that a mom on a campout will exhibit these kinds of concerns. However, it's also my observation that a mother who doesn't fit this stereotype will be accepted and respected by the boys--and that a dad who is too overprotective will be criticized.

[mtm25653]

When my youngest (of 3 boys) moved up to boy scouts, he asked me to not be as involved (I was Tiger Leader, Committee Chair and Webelos Den Leader when he was ages 4-11). He said "This is boy scouts, not mommy scouts," so I stayed in cub scouts, with limited involvement in the troop (Webelos to Scout transition for a couple years, one summer camp when the troop had another big trip, committee member). We have women very involved in our troop, including one who camps (including backpacking) on most troops (she was tapped out for OA earlier this month), but boys, even boys with fathers in the home (like my sons), need male role models more than they need female role models in their teen years. I understand that there are situations where a woman may need to be SM, if no man is available and qualified, but men and women are different, and we women can't teach a boy how to act like a man - we can tell him, we can give consequences (good and bad), but we are not men.

 

That said, boys need to develop independence from both their moms and dads. We have a lot of new parents camp for a few months after their boys cross over, but we also have leaders who make sure the parents leave their boys alone to work with their patrol and the older scouts. If mom or dad wants to watch from a distance, particularly if there is a health or behavior issue and they need to be comfortable with their son's and the leaders' ability to handle that issue, that's fine. But adults camp with adults, and boys camp with boys, and that includes sleeping, cooking, building campfires, setting up tents, everything.

[SueM]

I honestly think that there is a place for both men and women to be involved in Scouting. Though I keep my son involved so that he can have other men as role models and learn from them..he doesn't get much in the way of male role models otherwise..However, I also have in my troop boys who live with their father only and I think having a strong female role model for the boys to see is also just as meaningful and important to their growth. Adult Association doesn't really limit gender. My son has never asked me to limit my involvement with the troop and although I do bring some of the usual "mother" skills such as wanting them to eat properly...I use that in the way of encouraging the boys to enrich their own scout cooking skills and as a consequence, I have many boys now who really enjoy doing creative camp cooking and several who have expressed an interest in pursuing it as a career!! When it comes to camping though..I am no mother and I would never -allow- my son to sleep in my tent!! He needs to be on his own as much as possible! I expect that I would feel the same way if I was a man too.

 

I'm MUCH harder on the boys at camp then most of my adult male leaders are. They continually want to make life easy for the boys and I have to fight with them at every turn to keep them from going and putting up tents, cleaning up after them..cooking for them..solving all their problems..you name it! They baby these boys like you can't believe! The worst part of this is that they are all trained adult leaders too!

[SR540Beaver]

I can only repeat what has been said here, so I'll keep it short. I'm one of those guys who enjoys a guys only campout, but have absolutely no issue with women coming along or being scout leaders. Heck, I staffed a WB course with a female course director who set the gold standard in my estimation. Our troop wouldn't function nearly as well as it does without the ladies who are involved.

 

That being said, I find it important for the boys to have male role models in scouting. If I want to learn a sport, I'll go to a person who teaches that sport. If I want to learn a certain subject, I'll go to a school that teaches the subject. You get the idea. The aims of scouting can be modeled by men and women alike. But, since a scouts gender is male, the "best" model (not only, but best" is that of a man since that is what the boy will grow into.

[Stosh]

Ok, I'm going to take a lot of heat on this one, but there are specific differences between the leadership of men and women.

 

Women tend to be more organized, caring and nurturing. If that be the goal of your organization, get women involved.

 

Men tend to be more spontaneous, agressive and adventuresome. If that be the goal, get the men involved.

 

There's nothing that says it can't be blended goals as well. But the expectations and goals will definitely vary.

 

As a scout grows it is imperative to realize that the drive behind his progress will vary on the the male/female support they receive. This is why a mother/father combination is a natural balance in most world communities.

 

A young boy is climbing a tree.....

 

The mom will stand at the bottom, look up and say, "Be careful, or you might get hurt!".

 

The dad will stand at the bottom, look up and say, "How high can you climb!".

 

Draw your leadership on the basis of what you wish to accomplish. Scouting used to be traditionally Den Mothers with the caring, nurturing, kinds of growth for the younger boys and the male SM's for the more adventuresome and challenging aspects of later youth.

 

Now that the world has changed. Either don't worry about it and take what you get, or design it according to what you wish to accomplish.

 

Stosh

[msnowman]

I am not a male, nor do I play one TV (or in skits, that is a gray area /smile). I'm not even a "real" parent, just the guardian of a newly minted 1st Class Boy Scout. I am also CM in the Pack and MC in the Troop.

 

When Nephew was a Tiger or Wolf and would ask if he could run down the driveway at the church my answer was "No, I'm not sending you home to your parents with a broken arm.". As a Bear, when there was no concern about sending him home the answer became "If you rip your face off I don't want to hear about it". By the time he got to Webelos the answer was "I don't care. You've had Readyman, if you rip your face off you can fix it yourself". He begged me to come to summer resident camp for his Web 2 year (I hadn't gone for either of the 2 previous years).

 

When he joined the Troop I told him "I'm not going to be a leader, its up to you. I'll drive you and make sure you have what you need." I wanted him to see that he can rely on himself and on other trustworthy adults, he doesn't need me. When he wants to juggle knives (or something equally as exciting to a 13 yo boy) the answer is "How's your First Aid Merit Badge progress looking?" He has told me I "need" to come on one of their camporee trips.

 

Boy Scouts is a time for him to find his way with his peers, in a more constructive way than school or other social outlets might provide. It is a time for him to learn about himself and his interactions with others. He'll make mistakes, get hurt, pick himself up and (hopefully) try again. He learns that he doesn't need me. I think that oftentimes it is the parent who needs their son more than the son needs the parent.

 

He makes mistakes. I make mistakes with him. We yell and fight and say stupid things. I have said things to him (Alec Baldwin and I now have something in common) in the heat of anger that I later regretted. We push each others buttons and have been known to make the other cry. We also can shake hands (hugs are so Wolf-ish), apologize and move on. I can't teach him to be a man - good, bad or otherwise. I can only teach him to be a good and responsible person.

 

That being said - there is the mindset, with many Troops, where if a woman and a man were to raise identical concerns, hers would likely be dismissed as being too cautious whereas his would be heard out before being routinely chuckled at. Hopefully our sons, nephews, grandsons, etc will do better than some are doing right now.

 

YiS

Michelle

[LongHaul]

>>But I do think there's still an attitude from some people where if a woman raises a complaint about things like inappropriate language, bullying, etc.., that this is viewed as "mothering" in the over-protective sense and consequently the concern is sometimes discounted. >That being said - there is the mindset, with many Troops, where if a woman and a man were to raise identical concerns, hers would likely be dismissed as being too cautious whereas his would be heard out before being routinely chuckled at. Hopefully our sons, nephews, grandsons, etc will do better than some are doing right now.

[kenk]

L.H. -- well said.

 

Having grown up with a twin sister in a family that loved to camp, I have no doubt that outdoor skills have no gender. There are two moms in our small troop that take a very active role as leaders. One is an ASM, and the other is a treasurer (also the leader of my daughter's GS troop - yeah!). They work hard, are great leaders, great role models, and the Scouts like when they're along.

 

 

[SSScout]

Overly protectivity is not gender specific.

 

I led trips for AYH. A father called me, his 14 year old son was signed up for a weeklong bike trip, would I check over his bike? I said certainly, bring it over. He and his son arrived alittle later. I tightened and trued and talked to them about the trip. The father asked how the teens on the trip would travel. I said once they were on Cape Cod, by bike. The trip was totally self contained, they and their leaders carry everything on their bikes and stay in hostels and campgrounds. He said, they carry EVERYTHING? I said yes. He said that wasn't clear when they signed up. The boy says, yes it was, don't you remember...?

When I was finished with the bike, I told the boy to take it around the block and see how it rode. The dad followed in the car. It was starting to drizzle a little. When they got back, the boy thanked me and started to put the bike in the car. The dad asked, what happens if it rains? I said they get wet. He seemed honestly surprised by my answer, but said nothing, I remembered he looked at the boy. We talked about raingear and drying off.

When they left, I was not sure if the dad wasn't going along to Cape Cod, but I thought I had seen an understanding grin and shake of the head from the boy as they got in the car.