Bad language

[ajmako]

SWScouter: I always wonder what one who constantly cusses says when they really need to cuss? If expletives are constantly spewing from one's mouth, how do I as a listener know that he/she is trying to accent something or just speaking normally?

 

Back when I was young and stupid and I was firmly convinced cussing was the thing to do to show I was grown up, I resembled the above remark. Yes, even in Scouts and my private Catholic school. In school such language was not tolerated at all. It was a good way to get sent to Sister Dorothy's office. As a result such colorful language was used "underground". The same thing was true around my neighborhood--on our own we kids tried to outdo each other, but within sight of home we wouldn't even whisper such words. Why? Considering what my mother would do if she heard just the first syllable of cussing from my mouth, I would have preferred being sent to Sister Dorothy's office.

 

In Scouts cussing was an underground operation as well. Something done with whispered voices in our tents at night, or in normal tones when we were sure no adults were around. Curiously, if I burned my finger, or smashed my thumb, or dropped my baked potato in the mud, my response was not laden with colorful metaphores--usually. I can plainly remember several occasions when the odd curse escaped a Scout's lips in the vicinity of an adult, but I can't for the life of me remember anything being done about it. At least nothing beyond the disappointed expression on the adult's face.

 

In answer to SWScouter's question, people who constantly cuss merely get louder when they really need to cuss. And when accent and and stress is needed in "normal" conversation, the usual foul adjectives and adverbs are further modified by additional, complimentary (and usually more foul) adjectives and adverbs.

 

The moment I realized that I was stupid and needed to get smart came when I was in the Navy and as a Petty Officer I was trying to explain a planned maintenance process to a female sailor. "You just bleeping go to the bleeping PM box and get the bleeping card for the bleeping inspection you bleeping need to bleeping do, then bleeping follow the bleeping steps. Bleeping easy as bleeping bleep." This was supposed to be teaching, BTW. Something in my head just sort of clunked into place saying, "this is someone's mother you're talking to stupid."

 

Okay, that's the sea story. Now, what can be done about the use of foul language in Scouts. Most of the suggestions are good ones. The only thing I can add is that we need to remember that for every foul word we catch, there's about ten or twenty we didn't catch. The solution we use (my personal method can be found here: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=154232&p=2#id_155273) has to address the situation at the source--the idea that it's okay to cuss in the first place. Our solution has to be consistently applied, impressing upon the Scouts the fact that it's inappropriate behavior for Scouts even if no one catches them. If we make it clear that this behavior is not appropriate for Scouts, will not be tolerated, and we explain our reasoning, we'll have a much more effective result.

 

[scoutldr]

We had a cuss jar at one time...our ASM who sailed for 30 years as a merchant mariner and served in the Army before that would liberally use the f-word and s-word and even the n-word. Of course, his son was no better, because that's what he heard at home. When we got to summer camp, he would just throw a $20 bill in the jar and say, "There, I'm covered for the week!" We don't use the cuss jar any more. A teacher once told me that cussing just showed ignorance and a lack of education and vocabulary.

[Beavah]

Do yeh have patrol competitions?

 

Just dock the patrol of the cusser in the next competition, eh? Yeh want to generate positive peer pressure, and you do that by handicappin' the group for the failures of one of their number.

 

No yellin, no fumin', no callin' parents. Certainly no "having a word with them," which rarely accomplishes anything beyond makin' it go underground briefly.

 

Just simple consequences and peer enforcement.

 

 

[Pint]

Thnaks for the replies, im fully aware that bad language is less acceptable in the USA compared to the UK, adn thats one reason why i posted thist topic here.

 

 

In my opinion excessive use of bad language is lazyness, or attenstion seeking or both.

We had a good session with the Scouts where we went over what exactly constitues bad, and or inappropiate language, and a few examples of what ( few) circumstances bad language would be acceptable and in what situations.

 

With the attention seekers, the best approach so far has to be semi ignore it, if they say the F word, C word or anythng else, then ive found its best not to have a go at them imediatly, but to wait a few minutes, pull them over to one side and ask them casualy to be careful with their language, folloowed by another casual reminder at the end of the troop meeting, By doing that we are not rising to the bait, and the Scouts in question soon get bored of it.

 

So far things seem to be working the attention seekers have cut back drasticly and the others appear to have partialy understood the talk about using certain words at certain times and whats appropiate, inapropiate etc, We even did a little role play type activity to get this point across.

 

 

At the moment I have ( and possibly some other leaders) got another issue to deal with which is much more shocking than a swearing Scout, as soon as it has been cleared up ( ie neceseray parents informed if needed ) i will post all the details on here ( and a few other places)as its a good ( ort should that be bad) shocking/surprising story.

 

 

[mrpiddly]

well what can you do, boys will be boys

[OldGreyEagle]

And vulgar unrefined louts are destined to the dregs of society, but what can you do?

[packsaddle]

Heh, heh, or to paraphrase Aunt Polly at the end of the movie, "Tom Sawyer":

...or they might even become President some day - if they don't hang 'em first.

I still like that movie, especially the part where the boys fall through the church ceiling...I'd still like to do that myself sometime.

[ASM59]

In my book, it is all about; consistency, being a role model, and respect.

 

First is consistency. Some of the responses here seems to say that this type of language is OK if it is used at home or somewhere other than Scouting or Church. If we are trying to encourage some level of integrity by teaching the Scout Law, then we need to teach that this language is either not appropriate at all or that it is appropriate. So far, I either hear opinions that state it is not appropriate at all (ever) or that it is not appropriate for Scouting, Church, or in the presence of those who find it offensive. If theres one thing that youth can see immediately its hypocrisy. Giving the impression that this language is appropriate somewhere else, but not at Scouting functions is hypocritical and teaches that there are appropriate places for inappropriate behavior.

 

Being a role model is very important. How many would be willing to do as OGE does? He has set himself up as the standard for allowable language within the Troop. We need more Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters who will set the example when it comes to their behavior. This year at Summer Camp I visited 3 other camp sites. In each camp site I heard what I consider very inappropriate language coming from the mouth of adults within hearing of Scouts. I questioned one Scoutmaster on this and he said, Its OK, these are our older Scouts. We allow them to hang out with the Adults and since they are older we dont have to watch our language or subject matter.

 

For the method he described to work, OGE must have earned some respect among the youth in his Unit. I know this because it has worked well in my experience. I have told Scouts that they can use any word that they hear me use. Some of the youth I work with have been with me in Scouts for 9 years (they were in my Webelos den and now in Boy Scouts). When we address this issue, I will call on one of those Scouts who know me best, and ask how many times they have heard me cuss on a Scout outing? After they answer, I explain that our families are friends and that we do things out side of Scouting together. I then ask how many times they have heard me cuss outside of Scouting? Fortunately, they are always able to say truthfully that they have never heard it come from my lips.

 

When it comes to seeing the Scouts self-discipline in this area Ive seen it many times. I have heard Scouts say things like, Doug doesnt use language like that and will not like it or Dude, youre going to get Doug upset. I know it is because of consistency, the relationship that has been built with the boys and the respect that they have for me that this has not been a big problem in the past.

 

ASM59 (Doug)

 

[EagleInKY]

Doug, I like your post. In our unit it's "Hey, you don't want Mr. J to hear you say that". (I'm Mr. J). So, in general, the boys police themselves.

 

At summer camp last year, the problem was worse than normal. It was mostly the "substitute words" (Friggin', that sucks, and of course, OMG). But outside of earshot, it was apparently much worse. Some of the older boys brought it to my attention. (The problem was with some new first year scouts). We have a troop circle up every night at summer camp. We do a roses & thorns exercise. I spoke to them from the heart, explaining that this troop had a great reputation, and when they talk this way, it reflects on everyone. I, being the SM, am the public face of the unit. Therefore, when they cuss, it's a negative reflection on me. And I take that personally. When they saw how their language impacted others, they cleaned it up.

 

As for how I handle it when it does happen, the first time is the dirty look (a la Eamonn). A second time will get a response from me. I'll usually tell them that they shouldn't use any language they wouldn't use in front of their parents and their pastor or priest. (I used to just say parents and one boy informed me that they spoke like that around his house all the time).

 

I've never had a scout outright refuse to clean it up. I'm not sure how I would handle it. My next step would probably be a SMC with both him and his parents.

 

Good luck!

[skeptic]

Glad to see someone else mention the "substitute" words. The past couple of years this has become a real problem as well. We have discussed the fact that a different version of an unacceptable word is the same as using it, as everyone pretty much understands that it is a substitute. It does not help that we are bombarded with constant bleeps on tv and radio programs, and even astericks in paper media.

 

Another element that really grates on me of late is the constant immediate response of "I'm sorry", when the error is brought to their attention. I find myself recently telling the group that saying you are sorry, then constantly repeating the error, indicates to me that you are really not sorry at all. I usually get another "I'm sorry".

 

Very frustrating; and it happens in the classroom a lot as well.

[ASM59]

Yes, the dreaded substitutes. Don't use them, so the Scouts know not to use them. They seem to be more of a temptation to use, because they are accepted by Mom's and Dad's and Teachers more so than the real thing.

 

"I'm sorry"

When I hear it, my immediate Pavlovian response is to say, "Show me your sorry by your actions". This response is from hearing "I'm sorry" from my own kids way too many times...

 

ASM59

[packsaddle]

Wow, this unit must be populated by goodie-goodies. No problem at all, except by a former ASM who was subseqently expelled with cold wet sleeves.

Seriously, hypothetically speaking, I agree with Hunt on the moving target idea. And OGE's idea is as good as any. But if a garbage mouth joins the unit the effect could be infectious so some means of addressing the problem is needed - if you can actually identify the target.

Where do we draw the line? On one end of the spectrum is a loud expression of pain (Ow!) that progresses to the air turned blue at the other end of the spectrum.

The boys are quite inventive so the substitutions are inevitable. They are inevitably going to pick this stuff up from the media or from school. Efforts to do anything about it (other than to make them understand the effect) could, in fact, backfire.

The first step is for us do decide for ourselves what is acceptable...hard enough, some of the time. For me it is what I would be willing to see in print in a public forum. Others (Bush/Cheney, for example) might have a different limit (we should also listen to the Nixon tapes sometime to add to our perspective. I suspect Lyndon Johnson wasn't any different - I suspect that most of the Presidents, for that matter, put their pants on one leg at a time...maybe not Ford and probably not Carter;) but we didn't think much of those guys did we?).

 

But then, after we decide the standard, I like OGE's idea best. Set the standard and live it ourselves. And...as I've mentioned in another thread...it would be nice to apply this principle to the personal fitness aspects of the program as well.

[Hunt]

I think it's worth some more thought on why bad language is bad. To me, the main reason that it is bad is that it is offensive to other people. That's why the environment does matter. When I was a teenager, I spent some time working in a blue-collar environment with factory workers and truck drivers. Their language was so peppered with expletives that those words essentially had no meaning. Certainly, they weren't offending each other. Personally, I am much more offended by words showing a disrespect for religion (especially "Jesus!" and to a somewhat lesser extent, "Oh My God!") than I am by mildly scatological terms like "butt" or "sucks." Other people have the exact opposite sensitivity. So I would say that use of language that offends people shows a lack of sensitivity and empathy, or at least ignorance of other people's culture. Therefore, I think it's better to explain to a scout why you are offended by a particular word--i.e., "As a follower of Jesus, I don't like to hear his name used that way." Or, "When I was younger, the expression that something "sucks" was generally followed by an explicit, and crude, statement of just what it was that was being sucked. So when a person my age hears you use that expression, that's what we think you are saying, whether you mean to or not. As a result, using that term will make many people think you have a dirty mouth--and mind."