Please Help... Den Behavior Issue!

[margonzo]

Hi!

I will first give you a little background... I am a Den Leader with 12 wolf scouts. Great group of boys, we all have so much fun. But we do have one little boy who will not do anything he is asked, told etc.. he hits, is so far beyond rude etc.. we went to a museum and he was climbing into, over the walls, and on the displays. I will be the first to say he does need to be in scouts. This has been an ongoing situation with to many instances to write.

 

The problem is his Mom admits she has no control over him and just laughs at all the above mention situation. He does have an older brother that tags along sometimes and he has physically hurt another scout at a pack event.

 

It is getting to the point me and my 2 other asst den leaders dread outings and meetings because we know we cant control him and his mother refuses too. Other scouts have stoped attending events for this very reason.

 

I spoke to our cubmaster and thier advice was to pair him up with another parent as a buddy, but I know no parent willing to do this, nor do I think this is their responsibilty.

 

I love these kids and hate to see the whole den suffering like this. I just dont know what to do. Me and my Den Leaders are meeting soon to discuss this. Please if you have any advice, guidelines, or experience with this type of difficulty, i would love to hear it!

 

Thanks In Advance,

Margaret

[Lisabob]

Have you laid things out for the mother here? She may be unable to control him for a variety of reasons, but is she clear (have you made it clear) on how this is impacting other families in the den? Sometimes parents seem oblivious to the behavior of their own child; they have blinders on I guess.

 

How does this child act at school? Sometimes kids are better behaved when the parents aren't there - not suggesting you tell mom not to attend! - but is this a general behavioral issue or is it really about the parent's lack of parenting skill?

 

If it is a broader problem, is this a child with an emotional or behavioral disorder, or who is being treated for ADHD? It isn't your job to diagnose of course but I think we in cub scouting see a lot of children whose parents are just beginning to understand that no, "johnny's" behavior is not typical and yes it is a real problem. I also think we get a lot of kids where the parents are at whit's end and are hopeful that scouting will "fix" a boy's much deeper problems, which of course we cannot do. But it does help if we at least know when there is a medically diagnosed problem in the mix.

 

Although I think it helps tremendously to have some insight into the causes, and a good channel of communication with an involved parent is helpful too, that still leaves you needing to address the actual behavior.

 

Here are some things I'd consider:

1. As a den, come up with a (short) list of rules for behavior. To the extent that you can, involve the boys in creating the list.

 

2. Consider incentives for boys who meet the behavioral expectations. It can be something simple (sticker chart, den dangles, whatever). Maybe consider allowing them to do something special when they reach a certain level. Someone on this board once told me they used a big candle and when the candle had burned down to a certain level then the boys would get a treat, but if they misbehaved at a den meeting, etc, then the candle would be blown out that day. I don't know if that would work for your case? It seems like it puts a lot of pressure on the group to police their own. On the other hand, peer pressure might be a useful force - depends on your group dynamics.

 

3. Be clear with this boy and his mother that disruptive behavior like climbing into the exhibits and hurting other children will be cause for him to go home. Make it stick. Tell them both you want him to be involved but that in order to do that they need to respect the rights of others too. For that matter, be clear with the whole den that these are your expectations of all of them.

 

4. Make sure the other parents are clear that you understand their concerns and are working with the whole group to address them.

 

By the way I agree completely that "teaming up" this parent with a "buddy" parent is not going to work. First off, there's a natural reluctance to step in and parent someone else's kid, especially when the child's own parent is right there. It will likely lead to resentment. Second, it probably won't work - boys are quick to pick up on the dynamic and the response before you know it from the boy to the other parent will probably be "you're not my mom/dad, I don't have to listen to you." Third - sheesh! We don't join cubs to parent other people's misbehaving kids! Did your CM express interest in doing this? If not, what makes him think anybody else would want to!?

 

 

[Aquila calva]

Hello Margaret,

 

Welcome to these discussions.

 

Below is a link to some past discussion on a similar situation. There are some helpful suggestions from a number of contributors. This was from March 2006 in the Cub Scout section of the discussion board. The title of that thread is Unruly CubScout keep or kick-out?

 

When a situation develops that basically comes down to its the good guy or its the bad guy we need to make some difficult choices. When the bad guys include an eight-year-old, out-of-control, child, along with his Mom with questionable parenting skills, and an older brother who hurts other children, our hearts just ache. You and your other den leaders need to come to terms with what your talents are and what you can do, and are willing to do, to help. Scouting asks that we Do Our Best. One important mandate is that we need to keep our scouts as safe as possible. Having an older brother around who hurt a scout at a Pack meeting is a red flag. Hurting another person cannot be tolerated in scouts (or anywhere else). Mom needs to know that right away. (And the Cubmaster needs to know about what happened at the Pack meeting.)

 

You have a den of 12 scouts. That is great! You may soon have a den of 11 scouts, and thats great, too.

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=128219#id_128263

 

 

 

[Stosh]

I've been in your shoes and it's ain't pretty.

 

First of all, it sounds as if you are not going to get any support from the parents. That is unfortunate. My first step in dealing with the problem was to address the issue to the parent and if they wished their child to continue in the den they would have to attend with them and assist in controling their behavior from disrupting the other scouts.

 

With only speculation on my part, it would seem that the parents in your case are only using a respite opportunity to dump their kid onto someone else for a while. Not a good sign.

 

If the parents won't assist, then the boy will need to find other avenues of socializing. One cannot ruin the program for 10 others just to do a parenting job on an individual. Unless you have a second adult in your den who will step up and watch this scout like a parent, then there's really not much one can do.

 

If that sounds rather callous, then that's too bad because as I speak from experience, it will only get worse. As a scout leader who has had up to 6 boys at a time with ADD/ADHD, I can assure you I have tried just about everything and will as a last resort ask the boy to leave. I have worked side-by-side with parents to insure a good experience for all, but with no parental support, you are beating a dead horse.

 

Stosh

[MollieDuke]

Before I begin, let me say that I work with Behavior Disablity children. I know there are "poorly behaved" children and those with serious problems.

 

That said, the school will probably not give you any information on this student since all info is on a "need to know basis" and you are not a participant in the school system, so you simply don't need to know from their perspective.

 

I think the best way to handle this boy is to frankly believe he is classified as Behavior Disabliity which basically means he can't function in regular society which seems very evident. If he was dignosed means nothing in your case, I don't think.

 

Then, believing he is "terminally" going to be a behavior problem, you will develop strategies for EACH and EVERY meeting/outing/event/camp with this problem in mind. These steps can include things like: You're going to the museum. YOu know straight away that mom won't/can't control him and he WILL act out, defy, climb, deface property, and most likely shout, swear, kick, scream and all those bad behaviors you hate. You have to plan ahead on what to do with this child including telling his mother what your plan is and that you WILL be sticking to it. Make it a safety issue if you have to. You MUST do the best you can NOT to get loud, angry, or whatever. Before the museum, say one week prior, you sit this family down and explain that you cannot take him if he will not behave as this museum has RULES that MUST be followed. Give them a chance to stay home. Then, tell them that WHEN he acts out, you WILL XXX. Example: Mrs. Lackofcontrol, should you choose to attend this activity, WHEN your son acts out, I will issue his ONE warning. I shall say "Bruiser, I need you to get off that wall immediately and get back into the group." Then, tell Mrs. Lackofcontrol, that should Bruiser CHOOSE not to obey AND should SHE not CHOOSE to get him off the wall and back into line, then you have no CHOICE, but to ask them to leave XXX activity.

 

For these families, they need to understand that the CHOICES they've made to misbehave, not parent their child or whatever is the problem. "I can't control my kid" is not an excuse. You don't get a pass on parenting because it is hard. Take the focus OFF the boy and put it onto the behaviors of BOTH him and his parents. These are poor choices and should be treated as such.

 

Also, for children such as these (and their parents), the act of getting you to respond to him is what he wants. This requires that you NOT allow your puppet strings to be pulled. Keeping your voice as deadpan as possible especially in meetings, just say "Bruiser, I NEED you to sit down right here now." Then, go directly back to what you were saying. At NO TIME should you stop your meeting for Bruiser for more time than it takes to say that one thing. Of course, he won't sit down. They rarely do. Then, 30 seconds later, repeat the request, again in a deadpan voice. After the second time, you merely turn to Bruiser and state in a very calm, mostly disintersted manner and body language, "Bruiser, I can see that you have CHOSEN to misbehave which cannot work in this meeting. Since you have CHOSEN to ignore my request, I must ask you to leave the meeting. I have a responsibility to these other 11 children and you are choosing to take their meeting away from them. I simply cannot allow that, so you must go home. Come back next week, and make better choices." Then, just turn back to the other children and continue the meeting. If mom won't leave, then I suggest you call off the entire meeting for one night until you can call a committee meeting and get it ironed out. I would also state such. I would say something like, well, I am sorry parents, but as Bruiser has made it impossible for us to have a meeting, we'll have to pack it in for today. I will consult the Pack Committee and let you know by telephone what next week's plans will be. As of now, let's plan on next week unless I call you. Then, close the meeting and everyone goes home. Mom HAS to leave, then.

 

As far as any hitting or any "violence" at all it should be automatic grounds for dismissal from the meeting/activity. Zero tolerance. Not optional......etc. These kids need to know that they are safe from this.

 

In my classroom, we have rules for Respect and Safety which are not optional. We do not disrespect each other and we do not make an unsafe environment PERIOD. No warnings, no talking about it, it's a CHOICE and you made a poor one when you hit XX child.

 

Also, remember to stress to the ohter boys that hitting him back is equally bad. Bad language is not tolerated either. We have classroom appropriate language and you should have meeting appropriate language. I would even go so far as to draw up a set of written rules (no more than 5 rules, though) and set aside a meeting with your committee after the Leaders' meeting to state what you WILL do. Don't ask them about it. Tell them that you MUST have control or they can sit with Bruiser each and every meeting for the entire meeting. The 5 rules could be:

 

1. Respect (including for yourself/others/property/actions/words, etc---the word respect should be all you need after the explanation)

 

2. Safety (no hitting/throwing things/weapons(including objects used as weapons, like pencils)/untied shoestrings/etc---again the word safety should be all you need after this)

 

3. Be responsible (including bringing your book/pencil/wearing uniform/and even taking responsibility for your own actions and CHOICES---again word should be enough after explanation)

 

4. Procedures (HOW you do things like check books, pass out and take up materials, pay dues, etc.---word should be enough again)

 

5. Expectations (WHAT you expect the boys and parents to act like, what you expect them to DO/NOT DO, how much work they should be doing, when you want confirmations turned in for outings, etc---again, word is sufficient)

 

All these should come with consequences for breaking the rules as well. Such as hitting will result in leaving the meeting immediately. Send them to the Cubmaster. He can baby sit them till their parents come, or their parents can immediatley take them home.

 

This is very simple. The initial explanation will take an entire meeting and EACH boy and parent should not only be present, but should be given a handout with one copy for them to take home and one to sign and give to you that they AGREE with these things.

 

It is NOT any other parent's responsibility to parent this boy, and if he should hurt another child while in their custody, that can have liabilities all on their own.

 

Be proactive, remember YOU are in charge, Bruiser isn't. Sometimes, you just have to choose which kids to lose. IF you are already losing scouts, is it worth keeping Bruiser and his ineffective mother? I agree this child NEEDS scouting, but he's not getting it. He's getting his way which is not the same thing. I think his mom doesn't want to deal with him at home and she brings him to you to deal with, but that is entirely a personal opinion based on private experience.

 

I did have a boy years ago in my Bear den who was similar to Bruiser. We laid down the law, and he became a very good scout. Doesn't always happen. Even if it doesn't, it's not your fault.

 

Good luck. I know how frustrating this is because I deal with these types of kids all the time. You do them no favors if you allow this behavior and sometimes the only way you can fix it is through confrontation and strict rules.

 

You have my deepest sympathy, but I think you can control it if you are very proactive and deterrmined to take back your meetings for the other 11 boys. Just remember, they deserve a well run meeting with our without Bruiser and his mom.

[nldscout]

Time to send the little rat down the road, before something serious happens.

 

scouting is NOT for every child.

[LongHaul]

I agree totally with Mollieduke. My wife works with BDHD children so I have some second hand knowledge from that and as Ive said in other threads my two sons suffer from ADHD. Children respond to set rules, rules which are known in advance and handled as rules, without anger or emotion. As MollieDuke said, use a deadpan delivery. This is not open for discussion or interpretation; you have done A so now I must do B cold and impersonal. This puts the child and the parent in the position of deciding what to do next. If this is a medical condition in need of care it should be dealt with. If this is a parenting deficiency the consequences need to be realized. Either way this one child can not be allowed to control program for the group.

LongHaul

[packsaddle]

I would also like to say, Welcome to the forums! I wish it was under better circumstances.

When I was involved with cubs, I had a couple of these (my wife claims the whole den was like this, LOL). But one was so notorious that merely knowing he was involved in the pack caused families to change packs. WOW! He didn't last more than a few months and everyone breathed a sigh of relief (every time I hear of a local crime I listen carefully to the names of suspects).

The other cub was out of control but in a benign way, he really did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings or offend anyone and I think he was simply needy. What he needed was exactly what MollieDuke described. That was excellent advice.

 

But that part about the older brother - I'd like to know more about that. I am not sure the older brother should have been allowed to 'tag along' in the first place. And I would like to know more about that particular aspect of the problem. The cub may be greatly influenced by an older sibling who sets the wrong example.

[margonzo]

Wow what a response! It is so appreciated! Just a few more things, this scout is ADHD, as well is my son. I understand their interworkings but the main difference is I believe is the disiplne from parents. As far as I can tell, he gets absolutly none. His mom will tell anyone and everyone to go ahead and "get on him" because she says she has no control over either one of them and they wont listen to her. She laughs while she says it. Me and my asst's are meeting tommorow to come up with a fair plan of action for all. Thanks for all the advice!

[Aquila calva]

Another suggestion...

 

Whenever the Mom laughs at bad behavior from her son(s), quickly and calmly walk up to her, look her in the eye, and (again calmly) say, "That is not funny." Then immediately continue with the program.

 

This may help. Or, she may be in complete denial of what is going on. Really sad!

[trlarue]

I had one like this just this year, try this tell all the parents and scouts that you will start using a three bead system. Each scout will be given three beads at the beginning of each meeting. Then as behavior begins to get out of hand start taking beads.

3 beads good behavior

lose 1 bead warning

lose 2 beads time-out of activity at the time

lose three beads tell the parent and scout that you will see them next week is as polite a way as you can.

It sound more harsh than it really is. I haven't taken 2 beads yet. This worked for me.

Terry

[nldscout]

while all these goody goody ideas may sound nice. I still say its time for them to leave amd leave NOW. If you don't send them packing then someone is gonna get hurt and you will be talking to a lawyer.