Not fun.

[Eamonn]

Not really sure where the Big Ditch is?

 

Just a few minutes ago arrived home from New Jersey. Drive down wasn't bad.

Took the Sea Scouts for the Quarterdeck Training that Liberty Flotilla, were presenting.

They did a good job.

I managed to play with some block and tackle raising the scuttlebutt.

Think this is my next "New Thing"!!

It wasn't too cold and we did sleep indoors last night!!

Came home on the PA Turnpike. Plain sailing till we came through the Allegheny Mountain tunnel!! Then it seemed like we had entered a winter wonderland. It was snowing and black ice!!

It seemed to me that all the Scouts at the training had a good time. They were outside for a couple of hours, but there was lots of hot drinks and soup for them when the came back in.

I seen a few adults out in short sleeved shirts!! I thought they must be nuts!!

Her Who Must Be Obeyed thinks I'm a little nuts..

680 mile round-trip!! Wait till she finds out how much the blocks cost!!

Ea.

(LongHaul, I do have all the super-duper high wicking underwear. Have to admit to not liking it!! It doesn't seem very warm. It cost an arm and a leg. Even my winter jacket has zippers on the sleeves to allow for ventilation. I don't mind hiking in the winter, but much prefer to stay at a hostel or a cabin. Many years back as part of my Queen's Scout I hiked the 267 miles. it took me three weeks. Even in summer there were times up in the Peak District, when the wind and the rain was just down right nasty!! I was tired, cold, wet. We went to bed, knowing that the next day we were in for the same!!

When you are hiking like that it's strange that you seem to respect the sheep a lot more.)

 

[LongHaul]

Eamonn,

You say "Went to bed, knowing that the next day we were in for the same." Have you ever felt that way aboard ship? I like backpacking, don't enjoy doing it in a downpour wet to the skin, but I can accept that as luck of the draw. I don't prefer cold but can enjoy it. Bought a pair of "Thinsulate" red Wing boots once, cost a pretty penny and kept my feet warm almost as long as it took me to drive to work. I must have some eskimo blood because most of the high end stuff is too warm for me. I'd probably be one of those guys in shirt sleeves you saw.

LongHaul

[baden]

I must be nuts. I like winter camping. I went on winter maneuvers in the Army and enjoyed it very much. Sleeping in snow caves, cross country skiing, I just loved it.

 

Our Troop normally camps out every month. Tent camping. I don't believe we have ever cabin camped. We did cancel once. 15 below with howling winds and a ground blizzard. We may be nuts but we're not stupid. Two weeks ago we went to our district Winter Camporee. Got down to 0, but no wind. Very comfortable. As a Scoutmaster, I think it is my job to prepare the boys for the conditions. We stress layering of clothes, proper foot and headgear, and building their own sleep system. Our Troop bought a number of closed cell foam pads years ago for the boys to use winter camping. It is more important what is under you than what is on top when sleeping on the ground.

 

A number of years ago we went to our District Winter Camporee. Conditions were challenging. Near 0, fair amount of snow, and a brisk North wind. We had a Leaders meeting at 9:00a.m. on Sat. A well meaning older lady who is very involved at the District level stated that we should cancel the Klondike Derby and bring the boys into a large cabin at the park. She said we could run indoor activities and set up a TV and show some movies. My ASM said "The kids that wanted to stay in and watch TV were at home watching TV." We went as planned.

 

One thing our District does for Winter Camporee that I like is everyone brings a can of Chicken Noodle Soup to the event. We open it all up and heat it. Everyone can get a cup of soup at anytime during the day to help warm up.

[moxieman]

baden wrote:

One thing our District does for Winter Camporee that I like is everyone brings a can of Chicken Noodle Soup to the event. We open it all up and heat it. Everyone can get a cup of soup at anytime during the day to help warm up.

 

This is a requirement at our Klondike (well non-cream-based soup, doesn't necessarily have to be chicken noodle). It has worked very well over the years and we've had years much colder then what we had yesterday (-12F first thing in the morning and got up to a 'balmy' 14F at noon).

[Lisabob]

With the temperatures in my neck of the woods dipping to a chilly -10 or so, and windchills around -25 to -30, this thread came to mind again. I admit the thought of sleeping in a tent in winter isn't something that excites me at any temperature, but is there a point when it really is too cold, and if so, have we reached it? The one "good" thing about our current cold snap is that we also have more snow. OK. I like snow and I like snow-related activities. Followed by a nice cup of hot something and a hot shower. Except now my skinny little 12 year old says he thinks he wants to try building a snow cave on their upcoming Feb. campout and sleep in that! If possible that sounds WORSE to me than a tent in February. I don't know if anybody in the troop actually knows how to do this - I know my son does not, other than "you make a big pile and dig out a hole." He saw another troop do this at their January camp out. Can it really be as simple (and safe, in sub-zero temps) as all that? I surely don't know, and honestly hope I never have to try it myself. I'm no slouch and can tough out a lot of things but truly this meets my definition of "not fun."

 

Local vets have been on the news around here talking about the dangers of these extreme temps to cats and dogs, I'm not making this up. They're saying not to leave pets outside for any longer than absolutely necessary to answer nature's call. I'm having a hard time thinking that it isn't ok to leave "Rover" out in the yard for a half hour or an hour, but it is ok to send my child off to sleep in a pile of snow for the weekend. Those of you crazy enough to ENJOY this sort of thing, help me see straight on this one. At what point am I right to kick into "worried parent" mode?

[LongHaul]

Lisabob,

"Can it really be a simple and safe as all that in sub zero temperatures?" Yes IF you are proprerly trained and prepared. Because you have questions about "quinzee" building and confort I'm led to wonder if your 12 year old has been properly prepared for this outing. Consturcted properly a "quinzee" (hollowed out mound of snow) can be warmer than a winter tent. http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintshel.shtml

Surf the net for detailed instructions on construction. Basically you pile up snow about 5 feet high and let it settle for about two hours. Then you insert 18 inch long sticks into the mound all around the perimeter about three feet up. Insert more at different spots around the pile. Leave about 6 inches sticking out. These are guides so that while you are digging the inside chamber you can guage the thickness of your walls. When you hit the stick you stop hollowing out and leave 1 foot thick walls. Dig in 18 inches and then angle up so you are not crawling the whole time. Care needs to be taken to avoid over heating and excess wetness while excavating your house. When fully hollowed out use a hiking staff type stick to make two holes at the floor level all the way thru the outer wall about 1 inch diameter and one hole about three feet up on opposite walls. These are vent holes for air. After you have been in the quinzee for a while your breath and heat will cause the formation of a thin ice sheet on all the walls creating a windproof shelter. Use a plastic bag filled with your gear to plug the entry hole while you are inside. The inside temp should remain about 32 degrees even in sub zero temps. This does take a lot of time, should be done by two people working together,(no one sleeps alone)and requires a complete clothing change after completion. Remember Cotton Kills so leave it home. Use twice as much insulation beneath you as you do above. Closed foam works best. Ridged house insulation 1 inch thick seems to be the most popular.

LongHaul

[Lisabob]

Thanks LongHaul, for the info and the link. I checked out the link and I have to say I'm more worried now. I wish I could say I had complete confidence that all would be fine. As it is I don't. The boys have been working with the SM and one of the ASMs for the last couple of weeks in skill, talking about (really, listening to the adults talk about) cold weather camping with an emphasis on dressing properly. Last week I know they discussed hypothermia. My boy, unfortunately, was in the hallway supervising some kids who had made a mess and needed to clean it up, so he (and they) missed most of this. Even when he was there, I'm not sure how much of the information sunk in.

 

I know they have not discussed building quinzees at all and from your description and the info on the weblink you provided, this is more than a matter of digging a hole in a snow mound. It looks like it requires at least some prior knowledge and planning. I will talk with his SM about this to feel out his perspective.

 

This will be my son's first really cold weather experience. I don't want to hold him back due to my own misgivings and I don't wish to scare him, but neither do I want him to be in any real danger, of course. I prefer him with all his ears, nose, fingers & toes intact and functional! From talking with him, I don't think he understands that cold weather of the sort we're having here (sub-zero before the wind chill) can be a serious safety issue, as opposed to just a comfort issue. He has learned over the last couple of years not to complain much about discomfort, for fear of being teased. That's good as far as it goes, but I'm not sure if he would speak up if he were actually in trouble at this point.

[prairie]

Lisabob, if your concerned have him do a practice run in the back yard, I plan to here in the next week to check out the gear I want to use. Good part is if the wrong choices are made you don't have to tell the rest of the troop, just go back inside and figure out what to change/add.

 

I cringe every time I hear "cotton kills" I should have been dead many times over before I was 10, many times sent outa the farmhouse for the afternoon to play in near zero with cotton jeans, shirt, hooded sweatshirt, coveralls, gloves and rubber boots over leather shoes. Learned quick to stay warm you had to stay dry even if it ment lowering a zipper to let some core heat out.

 

Edited to add:

Read the winter camping parts to Colin Fletchers book, The Complete Walker 4th edition, he and his co-writer have a lot of experiance winter backpacking for a week or more at a time doing goverment hydrological survey work out west.

(This message has been edited by prairie)

[SR540Beaver]

The best survival skill is to imitate our animal friends. There is a reason birds migrate south in the winter and north in the summer. Do they have more sense than us?

[LongHaul]

Lisabob,

A little information is sometimes a bad thing . When it comes to winter camping information is essential. In sub zero temps when there is a wind the time it takes to begin suffering the effects of Hypothermia are very very small. We have all come to accept that even after one alcoholic drink we are impaired. Each successive drink increases that impairment. Hypothermia can be viewed in much the same way. As the outer layers of tissue on the hands, face, ears become cold the blood flowing thru them becomes cold. When that blood is brought back to the core it triggers a reaction in the hypothalamus. This is the little critter which acts like a thermostat in our body and reacts to changes as small as degree. You dont realize that a change has occurred but the body has changed its method of reacting to your physical activity. Blood vessels are being constricted to save heat and the hands, ears, face are getting less blood, less heat and are getting colder. Its like standing on a teeter tauter right in the middle. While balanced you are OK but as one side or the other dips you have to exert more effort to keep from sliding down. The farther the tilt the harder it is to fight and the faster you slide down. The margin for error in cold weather is smaller because the effects happen faster. At 0 degrees we are 98.6 degrees away from normal. What precautions would you take and what concerns would you have if you were in 120 degrees? Thats only a difference of 21.2 degrees. The difference in our concerns is because of our knowledge that the body can heat itself more efficiently than it can cool itself. We could not survive at 197.2 degrees which is 98.6 above normal. Think of your body's heat as being your body's blood. When our blood is allowed to escape our first thought is stop the bleeding. In cold weather our first concern must be stop the heat loss. Remember fire keeps you warm you must keep everthing else warm. A good coat is not warm, it helps prevent heat loss better. You must be able to heat your self and your clothing from within. Stay Clean, prevent Overheating, dress in Layers, stay Dry. Carry snacks and water. No Fuel = No Heat. As your body dehydrates your blood thickens and becomes harder to push through constricted blood vessels. No Water = No Heat. Physical activity produces heat but requires fuel and water to do so. Test your sleep system and clothing choices before you go. You would not jump from an airplane with a new design of parachute that has never been tested. We are all different and react to the cold differently. Find what works for you before you have to rely on it to keep you safe.

Cotton Kills because it absorbs moisture and steals heat. Yes, we all were dressed in cotton as children. I spend months dressed in cotton coveralls which get wet when I have snow constantly falling on my shoulders all day. Synthetics just are not tough enough for my work environment so I wear Carharts. Cotton jeans wick moisture from the bottom up the leg. If you are in 0 temps the amount of moisture on the ground and in the air is low if its 20 degrees your wet to the knees in no time. We seldom played outside from the moment we awoke till the moment we went to sleep but thats what we do on a campout. We dont have a warm house and dry clothes to change into at a moments notice. Having cotton next to your skin or as an outer layer increases your risk. Damage from moisture is highest in foot wear. Permanent damage to the blood vessels and tissue of the foot (Trench foot) can begin after as little as 12 hours at temps as high as 60 degrees. Stomping your feet when they are cold is the same as putting your hand on a table and pounding it with your other hand, yet we have all done it.

LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[AvidSM]

Excellent information from Longhaul.

 

I would put it this way:

 

Not being prepared for cold weather camping = NOT FUN

 

and

 

No matter how prepared you are, just not liking the cold = NOT FUN

 

[Eamonn]

We are in a real cold snap here in SW-PA.

Temps are way down.

School has been canceled for the past two days and might be either delayed or canceled tomorrow.

Still life goes on!

Rory still likes to go for his walk. We do about 4 -5 miles a day.

I'm dressed up like Nan-Nook of the North.

We haven't had a lot of snow, but what we have had has drifted.

I hate the cold, but I do enjoy watching Rory play in the snow.

I enjoy the light -If it wasn't so darn cold I'd take my camera.

I've never really spent any time in a desert but I imagine the way the snow forms on the ground is much like the sand would be like.

Rory and myself will follow the tracks we find in the snow. Seems that most of the wildlife is at home in their recliners, we have found the odd bird, rabbit and deer tracks. I did spot a red crested woodpecker the other day -Not sure what he was up to.

On the return trip we have to stop so Rory can bite the snow and ice out of his paw.

I don't like having my mouth and nose covered but when I don't cover them my mustache gets frozen. I wonder why all the old time explorers had beards? That must be very uncomfortable.

When it was just cold I'd stand on the ice and when it broke Rory would dig up a chunk and eat it.Now there is no breaking the ice it's just too hard, so Rory doesn't get his snack.

When we are almost home Rory checks out the wild bird feeder we have not far from the house. I fill the birds water bowl, must be kinda hard for them to find something to drink when everything is frozen? I don't know how long it takes for the water in the bowl to freeze, but I put that down to me doing my best. They need to get it while the getting is good!!

I pick up the mail, while Rory checks out the long line of hemlock trees. This year they seem to have more cones than in past years.

Then it's home. He gets a drink of water and a dog biscuit and I have a big mug of coffee with double sugar and cream!!

Her Who Must Be Obeyed informs us that we have been gone a long time and asks what we have been doing?

Just like OJ, I reply "Nothing."

I can't wait for summer!

I hate the cold.

But I do try and remain cheerful.

Ea.

[SWScouter]

Sunny, upper 70's, low 80's...

[prairie]

Tested my gear last night, eight hours at 10 above to 10 below.

Tent: Eureka Backcountry 1 three season tent, two bettergrade sleeping bags and a 2 inch Thermarest. Had put on a nice stocking hat as well as good polypro longhandles and a light fleece zip jacket, took me 5 minuets after all settled to notice the hat was no longer on my head, pulled the jacket up for some protection but not near as efective as the hat. Still the test went well, slept warm enough including feet, tent frosted up inside but thats not supprising. A mild headache, might be from the cold or from mild dehydration.

Woulda had two liter bottles in the bag to ensure ready water for morning cooking.

[LongHaul]

Praire,

Headache could also be caused by you turtleing during the night. This is what we call it when you try to pull your head down inside your shoulders. It compresses the neck vertebras. I use a balaclava at night because it wont come off like a hat and covers the back of my neck as well. They are easily made from a piece of fleece. http://www.shelby.fi/kaava/403/403.php Has a workable pattern, but I just cut two pieces in the shape of the total outline and sewed them together on a machine. I extended the part that covers the back and chest to get better coverage and also used some extra material to put piping around the face hole. Make two and use it during the day as well.

LongHaul