Offenses

[packwife]

How bad of an offense does a scout have to commit to get suspended? Is it what the SM or ASM sees as bad or are there guidelines for offenses? Is a scout allowed a few chances first or is it one screw up and SM thinks its bad and out he goes? What if the parents think it wasn't as bad and the SM thinks it was, does a parent have any say?

[ScoutNut]

Your SM is going to suspend your son simply because he dropped one "f-bomb" at summer camp? That is what the whole meeting is September is going to be about???

 

Sorry, that's nuts.

 

The talking to & apology SHOULD have been sufficient.

 

Geez - What does he do if some one gets hit? Have them drawn & quartered?

 

I would also bet that every one of those adults at camp said an inappropriate word once in their lifetime AT LEAST.

 

I am against rude/lewd language, however 1 word - 1 time is not a hangin' offense.

 

 

[evmori]

I gotta agree with ScoutNut! Suspending a Scout because of a single use of the F-word is way over the top. An apology yes.

 

Theft, deliberately causing personal injury are a couple reasons to suspend a Scout. But not one f-word use!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

packwife, you mentioned your son was considering switching troops anyway. If the SM intends to suspend him over this incident that you described then I'd say, run, don't walk, to a new troop because that's ridiculous.

 

On the other hand if it was a purely hypothetical question:

 

I'd support suspending a boy who repeatedly refuses to do what he's asked or to participate in any way and is nasty about it in the process. (the kid who uses the f word at every turn in response to every request)

 

I'd support suspension for a boy who has a weapon, who pulls a knife, deliberately (and maybe repeatedly, depending on what we're talking about) destroys property, who is a serious danger to himself or others, who has alcohol or drugs in his possession at a scout event or shows up under the influence.

 

I would NOT support suspending a kid just for losing his cool or having a bad day.

 

Lisa'bob

 

[CA_Scouter]

I agree with the posters that one ( or even a couple ) F-bombs does not a suspension make.

 

Egregious safety violations, personal injury, and multiple repeat offenses would qualify for possible suspension.

 

I'm not sure what the case is here, but I doubt that this situation is all about ONE f-bomb. I'm guessing ( and no offense intended ) that there is more than this one incident weighing on the Scoutmaster's mind.

 

Please remember that when you give the SM and his staff responsbility for the health and safety of your child, you also submit your child to the their expectations and standards of behavior. Its not really fair to them to have you going around second-guessing their decisions... after all, YOU willingly allowed them to take responsbility for your child! You can't expect them to hold Kid A to Family A's standard, Kid B to Family B's standard, etc...

 

I had to suspend one kid for, among other things, rudely propositioning a young lady ( while in scout uniform ), defacement of public property ( after we busted him he threw a fit and carved up a picnic table ) and insubordination. His Mom argued with me repeatedly, and stated 'But he is such a GOOD boy!'.

 

Parents don't always see Little Johnny's behavior when he's out of their line of sight.

 

I only say this because you should consider the possibility that your son might have had a few lapses in judgement that you don't know about, but the Scoutmasters do...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

CA Scouter, I agree that there are times when parents don't know (or worse, won't hear) the whole story about little Johnny's behavior. But then too, I think it is really up to the SM and/or ASMs to keep parents in the loop. I don't go on many campouts because I want to give my son time to be a kid w/o having "mom" around at every scout function. So I don't always see everything. But I know I'd be spitting mad - at the SM - if I found out down the line that my kid had been a serious pain in the rump all along and nobody had let me know until it all boiled over and they wanted to suspend him, seemingly from out of the blue. Communication has to be an on-going process and it had better go both ways. Otherwise I think the SM has failed to do a big part of his or her job.

 

Lisa'bob

[SemperParatus]

In my opinion, a SM or ASM should never suspend a scout. Suspension is a very serious action to be taken. I would suspect that most boys suspended from a troop for some period of time never go back (some do, but most don't). So a suspension might as well be an invitation to a 'voluntary' expulsion. This should not be left to one or a few people. Such harsh disciplinary measures are best left to the Troop Committee. The SM can recommend such action be taken to the Committee, but the Committee is free to decide for themselves. I doubt you will find any official word from the BSA on how to proceed, so each unit must decide how to handle these issues itself.

 

I agree with the others...a one-time use of the f-word in the heat of frustration is not grounds for a suspension.

[packwife]

Yes, my chld used the f word and it was taken care of at camp, so I thought. The SM goes on to tell me about a few other incidents at camp. So being the mom I am, I had a discussion with my son about his behavior. During which, I find out that SM didn't quite tell the whole story. I did more questioning of other boys in his patrol, all of whom were involved in these offenses, and found out the rest of the story. It was a game they were in; a hunt. This patrol took a different approach to the hunt and it was over before the patrol finished. They went back to camp and were yelled at for quitting. My son spoke up and said they didn't quit, whould he like to see everything they collected? No was the answer, however a punishment resulted. They were also told that merit badges take priority. This patrol a couple of partials they were trying to finsih before the last day and didn't do well on a bunk inspection. Punished again although they were following what they were supposed to do. Personally, I think everyone involved was having a bad week, but the adults don't want to seem to admit any wrongs. My son was threatened with "Its a good thing your not my child or you wouldn't be able to sit down." How is that helping any situation?

Ok, I feel like I'm starting to rant.

 

I think if any meeting happens it should be one with me, my husband, and son, and see if any one agrees that missteps happened on both sides before they loose a good scout and he looses having a good experience with scouting.

[evmori]

I would not go to the meeting. You can't win. I would look for a new Troop that is boy-run ASAP. The one you are in isn't and never will be.

 

I would tell the SM you need to reschedule the meeting & go Troop shopping with your son. He and you will be better off.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[oldsm]

I strongly agree with what CA-Scouter said.

 

As far as keeping parents in the loop, that is well and good. I think most SMs try to do that. However, it is very difficult to remember every jot and tittle of every incident. If I tried to do that, I would spend all my scouting hours just taking notes in a little black book and no time counseling young men, consulting with other adult leaders, etc., etc.

 

Remember that your SM is a volunteer who most likely has a full-time job outside of scouts, and a family to support and raise. Yeah, we all laugh at the "one hour a week" adage, but what we often fail to acknowledge is that a dedicated SM (or SA, for that matter) often puts in what amounts to a half-time job in volunteerism. And I think it's human nature to want to deal with things following the path of least resistance sometimes. We also might try to avoid dragging parents in early-on to keep from "ganging up" on the boy. Maybe also to avoid having to argue with parents who don't want to admit that junior might have a few rough edges.

 

While you may not like what you've "uncovered" (and there may well be more that you haven't learned yet), I think you need to give the adult leadership the benefit of the doubt and work with junior to make sure he stays (or gets) on the straight and narrow. If there have already been some other incidents, chances are that the SM already discussed them with your son. Maybe your son doesn't want to stay in the troop because he doesn't like being held accountable?

 

I've never suspended anyone, but we had one young man who committed an egregious lapse a few years back. The particular incident was not a first offense - it was just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. The CC and I met with the boy and his mother, discussed the act, and agreed upon an appropriate course of action. The boy decided the next day that he didn't want to accept the consequences (which were rather minimal), so decided to move to another troop, with mama's blessing. He didn't last long there.

 

There may be more to your situation than you or we know. I would be careful not to make a mountain out of a molehill to avoid damaging relationships any further. Just my .02.

[Beavah]

I'm old and grey, but I remember a time when parents would support other adults involved in da care and feeding of their kids. If a teacher or coach or scout leader ever told my mom that I had mouthed off, the SM was the least of my worries. He wouldn't need to suspend me, my mom would have taken care of that and more to boot. And she wouldn't have spared any time for my excuses, either.

 

Yah, sure, there were some times where I was right and the adult was wrong, or at least I felt so and would sure tell the story that way. Dat wouldn't have mattered, eh? Even if I was right, the lesson to be learned was how to be right in a way that was respectful.

 

Not supportin' the SM is the same as not supportin' your husband/wife in a discipline matter with the kids, eh? It does nothin' but harm. Support the SM, or if s/he is really so awful ask the committee for the SM's removal and step up to be Scoutmaster yourself. There's no middle ground that makes for a good lesson for your son or a healthy environment for the troop.

 

If you can't do one of those two things, it's time to find a new youth program run by someone you can respect and trust, eh?

 

 

[SemperParatus]

"I think if any meeting happens it should be one with me, my husband, and son, and see if any one agrees that missteps happened on both sides before they loose a good scout and he looses having a good experience with scouting."

 

I agree that the meeting should be between the parents, scouts and SM. Heck, invite the Committee Chair too. While we would all like to think that a 14 year old boy should learn to work thru such problems on his own, it seems clear that your son will need your help with this. A boy is no match for an adult in authority when it comes to 'who said and did what'. You have a legitimate concern about the degree of discipline being shown your son and the SM needs to answer for the actions he may be planning to take. I would not, however, attempt to argue about who is to blame and how much needs to be shared by others. Your position is simple. Your son was being harassed. In a moment of frustration, his tongue slipped. He has since gotten a stern talking to by the ASM, been continuously threatened with removal from camp, and has apologized. What more does the SM intend to do?

 

 

[Beavah]

Your son was being harassed ????

 

Where'd this come from, eh? Respond to wrongdoing by accusing someone else? Not in my version of the Oath and Law.

 

Close as I can tell, the other boy was a PLC member and a youth leader. "Harassment" may have been "stop bein' a jerk, you have to pay attention and follow the rules." In a youth run troop, it is important for the adults to ensure that the boys respect the youth leaders. That merits a follow-up conversation if it was an ongoin' issue.

 

Then, too, lots of boys when they are gettin' ready to leave a group they've been involved with for a long time need a clear reason to leave. They need a psychological "break" with the group. So they generate one. Just like teen romances, a fight and casting blame makes the separation easier. Could be what's goin' on here.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm dense. Don't we already have one thread going on this subject? When I first saw this thread, I didn't equate it to the other thread and saw it as more of a hypothetical question. Packwife, do you know for a fact that the SM is planning to suspend your son or is this just an assumption. You asked the question of how bad of an offense does a scout have to commit to get suspended and everyone started responding to what happened in the other thread. Are the two related? Is his supension a known or an assumption?

 

My simple answer to the simple question you asked at the beginning of this thread is that it will vary from troop to troop and leaders to leaders. We had a boy pull a knife at summer camp. It was dealt with at camp, the boy had to call home and explain what he did to his parents, no one went home and the slate was wiped clean when we got home. I won't bore you with the details of why it was handled that way, but a lot of it depended on a number of circumstances. We had an ASM serving as summer camp SM and I'm 98% sure that how it was handled would have been different if the SM were there. I know exactly how it would have been handled in another troop I used to work with. So, I say it depends from troop to troop and leader to leader.

 

Do you get a say? You get to express your opinion and you get to vote with your feet. But no, you don't get to determine how the unit is run unless you are an active registered member.

 

Now, with all that said, I would have handled it at camp, left it at that and not rehash it when the troop gets back together in the fall. I especially wouldn't consider suspension for dropping a single F-bomb. Now, it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back if a boy has a vast colorful history to bad behavior. so again, it all depends.

[packwife]

Sorry SR540Beaver,

I was asking about how bad the offense had to be to get a scout suspended. It kind of snowballed back into the earlier thread I started. He has not been suspended, but I am fearing this action.

 

Beavah, he dropped the f word with a boy who then continued to harrass him through the whole week. Teasing more than harrassing but you know the type; keep messing with the boy who shows the most reaction.

Thanks everyone. I think I'm going to see what takes place when the meetings start again in September.