Am I my brothers keeper?

[Venividi]

This is spun from the "getting a boy to admit responsibility" thread, to separate the topic from the advice requested on how to deal with that boy.

 

There appears to be diverging views on whether other scouts witnessing a destructive act should be held accountable for doing nothing. There is a classic quote is "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

 

I do think that scouts that do nothing to prevent a fellow scout from performing a destructive act need to be held accountable for doing nothing. Doing nothing is not consistent with our aim of Citizenship. I see several points of the scout law involved:

Trustworthy: trusting the scouts to be responsible for troop equipment by not letting others damaging it.

Loyal: Loyal to the troop - the troop resources were being destroyed.

Brave: It takes bravery to stand up for what a scout knows is right and against what a scout knows is wrong.

 

There are certainly factors that would influence HOW a scout addressed an act of destruction by another scout - talking to the offending scout and asking him to put away his knife would be a better option than attempting to wrestle the scout in an attempt to take away his knife. And reporting the problem to the PL and/or SPL would be called for. Doing nothing at all just isn't consistent with character and citizenship.

[Eagledad]

I agree. Our scouts learned that when ever I was called to deal with misbehavior, or saw it myself and went to deal with it, all scouts within site of the act where held as accountable as the scout who misbehaved.

 

As you pointed out, the actions of the scout law are not intended as actions to himself, but to everyone around him. If we don't learn to hold each other accountable for bad behavior, then how do we maintain a civil society?

 

I hope this reply applies appropriately because I have not participated in the other thread.

 

Have a great day all.

 

Barry

 

[EagleInKY]

I agree Veni. It sounds like you've got the makings of a nice SM Minute there, as well. Any time we can use the Scout Law as a measure of their actions, we're accomplishing two objectives at the same time. We're "disciplining them" using their own words (after all, they repeat the Scout Law at nearly every meeting), and we're reinforcing the good things that happen when we do live by the law.

[Eamonn]

I see this as two issues.

On one hand we have who ever did the dastardly deed.

He is responsible for his actions.

If there is a consequence to pay he should be the person responsible for paying it.

One the other hand we have the responsibility of the group.

This brings up all sorts of questions and issues.

The size of the group?

Some one does damage at camp.

Do we hold the entire group of people in camp to blame?

The consequence?

One person did the damage -Does everyone pay?

It brings up questions of loyalty.

Loyalty to the person or the group?

Before we take any action we would need to be sure of the facts.

Maybe they did nothing because they just didn't know.

I agree that doing nothing shouldn't be an option.

I just don't agree that group punishment is the way to go.

Eamonn.

[Trevorum]

Among the many values we hold, Scouting teaches accountability for one's actions.

 

Last Sunday, I was priveleged to attend the Eagle Court of Honor for a fine young man. After the ceremony, I was talking to his father, a good friend, who reminded me of the time this fellow, as a 9 year old, came home with a "No Trespassing" sign he had "found" in the woods, nailed to a tree. The father of course realized whoose sign it was and why it was on that tree, and marched the young man over to apologize for stealing the sign. Until that moment, the fellow hadn't thought of his action as stealing, but it was a moment that will last the rest of his life.

[Venividi]

Eamonn,

 

From your most recent posts in this thread and the getting admit responisbility thread make it clear that your disagreement is not that bystanders do not have a responsibility, but a disagreement with what the appropriate action/discipline should be for those bystanders that watched and did nothing. That had not been clear in your earlier posts (at least to me). Thanks for clarifying.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>Before we take any action we would need to be sure of the facts. Maybe they did nothing because they just didn't know.

I agree that doing nothing shouldn't be an option.

I just don't agree that group punishment is the way to go.

[SemperParatus]

I am reminded of Martin Niemoller's poem...

 

When the Nazis came for the communists,

I remained silent;

I was not a communist.

 

When they locked up the social democrats,

I remained silent;

I was not a social democrat.

 

When they came for the trade unionists,

I did not speak out;

I was not a trade unionist.

 

When they came for the Jews,

I did not speak out;

I was not a Jew.

 

When they came for me,

there was no one left to speak out.

 

****

 

Failing to hold each other accountable will inevitably require an accounting.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I was no match for the students I taught for five years. The young people I had were on a first name bases with Trouble. Since they were not Scouts, I relied on friendship and a few classroom rules. I had locks on the doors and cabinets but that didnt stop any that wanted something. One day I left my keys out by mistake so they went missing. I first panicked but thought better and then ran over to Arthurs class, a student in the know. I put the word out that there would be no punishment for the return of the keys, ten minutes later the keys were on my desk. I was lucky to get them back. The culprit was not Arthur.

 

Another time, I was off to a conference. Upon my Monday return, the money jar was missing from the cabinet. It wasnt much but it belonged to the all of the students. It was money that they earned from their projects which provided funds for future projects and sometimes pizza. I took three students I suspected into the hall and questioned them one by one. The young man that took the money confessed after we talked. He couldnt pay the money back but his Mom was notified. I liked this young man because he had promise. A few years later, he stopped me in the street and updated me on his progress. Reggie had grown and in part to his taking responsibility for his actions.

 

Julie gave me fits from the start. What made it worse was the lack of backing from the new administrator. Julie chewed gum, talked continuously, skipped class, and cussed me to my face. I would give her a detention, send her to the office and then she would be sent back with a warning. I called her Mother and the Mother cried because she faired even worse than I. I finally gave up and just charted her behaviors, one by one until it filled a folder. Her last act was to disrupt an entire class period. I called a meeting with Mom, the new administrator and I called in the Head Principal. I began to read the litany of behaviors and dates. Mr. Wallace stopped me after about five minutes. He suspended Julie from school for the rest of the year. A year later, Julies husband shot her in the head.

 

I did my best, in part because I got to know and appreciate these young people. I was able to teach some of them and others just passed through onto other things. They made their mark on me and I know that I was responsible for helping a few of them. I didnt always know the right thing to do but I tried. Some kids defy standard punishment. Trying to be fair and balanced is difficult when stressed but it is a must. Trying to get students to accept responsibility and then to talk about their actions is next. Then it is important for them to go on and succeed. FB

 

[Eamonn]

I'll admit to being a royal pain in the you know where.

If I see someone at a Scouting event doing something that he or she ought not to be doing I'll try and be as nice as I can and point out that they ought not to be doing it.

At times I don't have the courage of my convictions.

While at a Parking Lot Meeting after a Committee Meeting a week or so back a small group of young Lads (4) who I didn't know came down the street. A couple of them were smoking.

I know I should have said something, but I didn't. Least ways not to them.

Had I known them? And I like to think I know most of the Lads of Scout age in our big town (pop. 4,800) I would have said some thing.

Maybe I should have done some thing?

I'm just not sure what?

I did mention to the people I was with that I'd love to get these Lads into Scouting.

As I write this I wonder what I would have done if I'd known the two Lads who weren't smoking?

What would I have done?

I agree 100% that we should take care of each other.

If taking care means that we prevent someone landing in hot water for doing something dumb, that's fine.

But when I catch John Brown with a knife in his hand carving JB LOVES JE in the trunk of a tree and his is the only carving, I don't see punishing anyone but John Brown.

I'm nosy enough to want to know who JE is?

Eamonn.