Getting a boy to accept responsibility

[Eagle309]

We had an incident at summer camp where upon checkout it was discovered that one of the tents had two small knife holes placed in it. Due to some tent changes during the week (because boys left one night for OA ordeal and boys did not want to tent alone), there had been 3 boys who slept in this tent. One boy admitted to playing around and poking a hole in the tent. He paid me the repair fee and surrendered his knife and totin' chip.

 

No one admitted to the other hole so I had to take both other boys knives and cards. However, after this, two boys came to me privately at different times and told me with the same details how they saw one of the boys in question stab his tent. This boy has a bit of a problem with 'truth' and still admits nothing. Any advise on how to get him to own up. As far as character development goes, this would be one of the best things we can do for this boy.

[evmori]

This boy was already being dealt with. What I would do is explain to the entire Troop what happened & since no one fessed up to the other holes, all of those in the tent were responsible. Even if they did nothing, they let it happen & shouldn't have.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[acco40]

I agree with Ed. Assessing blame should not be the top priority.

 

No one admitted to the other hole so I had to take both other boys knives and cards - Nothing like guilty until proven innocent! I know that this isn't popular but I've only taken a knife from a Scout (he threw it at another Scout according to other Scouts, no adult witnesses) once and promptly gave it to his father who would deal with him much more harshly than I would. Also, I know I'm in the minority again but the Scout's "Totin' Rights" can be taken from him if he fails in his responsibility but nowhere does it state that corner are cut off or the card may be repossessed. After all, do we strip a youth of his 1st Class rank if he forgets how to tie a bowline?

[Eamonn]

I'm sorry Ed I just can not and never will agree with you when you state:

" Even if they did nothing, they let it happen & shouldn't have"

If we were both standing around and no Scouts were within ear shot I know what term I'd use!!

Eagle309 seems like a very nice fellow.

I know that I'd be upset about the tent.

Still the tent can be repaired or replaced.

The bigger issue is finding a way to get this Lad to make the right choice.

As I see it, if it were me (And yes I'm aware that it's not me!) I'd look at my options.

I could choose to do nothing.

I don't like this very much, apart from anything else it doesn't seem fair to the Scout who owned up and paid for his "Crime"

I could get all 3 Lads together and pull a "No one is going anywhere until I find out what really happened"

But I think this might only make the guilty party make things worse by telling more lies and it could end up as a "He said, you said" type situation. These are never good and as a rule don't get anyone anywhere.

Of course I don't know the Scout, but most Scouts I have known don't tell the truth because they think that they will end up in more hot water.

I'm left wondering what my motives are?

What do I want to happen?

Much as I don't want to have to use Troop funds to repair or replace the tent. Is the tent and the money what I'm worried about?

Looking at the title of this thread it doesn't seem that this is the case here.

I think I would have to find an opportunity to let this Scout tell me what really happened.

This might be at a SM conference or just finding the right time and place.

I'd be very honest and let him know that I was unhappy about the destruction of the tent and while there would be a consequence for the damage, it wasn't a hanging offense. If he didn't "come clean" I'd point out that I had discovered from a reliable source, that it was him that did the damage. But I was now more upset that he wasn't living up to the Oath and Law and had let himself down by not being man enough to own up.

I'd then pass the matter over to the Troop Committee.

Eamonn.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, Eagle309. I agree with you, eh? Usin' this incident to confront a boy about his lying is an act of service. It might be a bit late to follow up, but here's my thoughts.

 

1) Puttin' a hole in a tent is an act of carelessness.

 

2) Not being truthful is a serious issue.

 

I'd sit the boy in question down and explain these two points (or I'd have his PL do it with me present; depends on da PL). Either way the PL or SPL should be there. I'd give him a big, wide opening to "come clean."

 

If no dice, I'd bring in the other witness(es) and ask them what happened. That's almost always enough to get the boy to admit to it.

 

Not a lot of lecturin' no matter what. Just simple consequences, administered with regret and care for the boy.

 

1) For pokin' a hole, a gentle reprimand & restitution. And sure, take the knife for a bit if you think that'll work.

2) For bein' dishonest initially but coming clean, some good hard service work to "make up for it", followed by a nice job and an ice cream to show he's back in good graces (if his service work was up to scratch).

3) For still not bein' honest, time off from the troop and a meetin' with his parents. Preferably until he does come clean at a SM conference. Then see #2.

 

Thanks for caring, even when it's hard.

 

 

[evmori]

I'm sorry Ed I just can not and never will agree with you when you state:

" Even if they did nothing, they let it happen & shouldn't have"

 

So if a you know a Scout is gonna grab a chipmunk & rip its legs off and you stand there & do nothing that's OK? That is sorry.

 

Knowingly letting someone destroy property is the same as doing it yourself.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Venividi]

One of the objectives of boy led patrol method is for the boys become responsible for, and accountable to, and look out for each other. So yes, if other scouts watched and did nothing, then they have a lesson to learn also.

[Beavah]

One of the objectives of boy led patrol method is for the boys become responsible for, and accountable to, and look out for each other. So yes, if other scouts watched and did nothing, then they have a lesson to learn also.

 

I think this is another method the boy can learn good lessons from.

 

All bad acts affect and hurt other people besides ourselves, and damage the community as a whole. It's just that often we don't see the effect we have on others and on the community.

 

A SM who visits a penalty on the community for an individual's bad act helps a boy connect the dots from his own actions to the harm done his friends and troop.

 

[Eamonn]

Knowingly letting someone destroy property is the same as doing it yourself.

That being the case maybe we need to re-write the Oath and Law:

On my honor I will do my and make sure everyone else does his best best

To do my duty and their to God and our country

and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake, and morally straight.

 

A Scout is and will make sure that everyone he is with is.....

 

We don't know who was in the tent when the damage was done?

One Lad might have not been there as he was away.

Do you really want to mess with anyone holding a knife?

If you are the passenger in a car that gets stopped for speeding? should you also get a ticket because you let the driver speed?

If all 3 Lads done the damage all 3 are guilty, but we each of us are responsible for our own actions and punishing the innocent doesn't seem in keeping with the Scout Law.

Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Eagle309]

As was pointed out, the cost of tent repair is minor. The misuse of knives can be addressed with a talk with each boy to make sure they understand the mistake they made. My big concern is with the boy who will not admit his responsibility even when faced with the facts. He knows the consequences the other boy faced (pay for damage and no knife till SMC) were not major. Our prisons are full of people who "didn't do it", or "it wasn't my fault". This boy is young and now is the time to build his character. I am just not sure how to go about this.

[Crew21_Adv]

Greetings everyone!

 

Eagle309 asked, Any advise on how to get him to own up.

 

I concur with many of the statements my fellow Scouters have made. Here are my two cents...

 

Owning up to accepting responsibility is difficult, Only the Scout can do that. The Scout would have to feel his guilt and feel his conviction to do what is morally correct.

 

We've discussed these but, a couple of popular classes. Wood Badge and NYLT. Wood Badge now has The Game of Life aka Win All You Can. In NYLT we do not place as much pressure on the Scouts, so there is an easier topic, Making Ethical Decisions. In an interactive lesson they select from three decision choices, trivial decisions, right vs right decisions, and right vs wrong decisions.

 

This right vs wrong portion lets them interact and allows them to decide. The decision is still theirs, but ideally they will consider the Scout Oath and Law as well as their own personal morals and values.

 

This past summer, after this topic was completed, we had a one NYLT participant "own up" about a bad decision to our SPL.

 

Does ethical decisions work everytime? Unfortunately no.

 

My advise is... Ask your SPL to conduct some ethical choices scenarios with the Troop, and let them all consider different choices. Sample scenarios can be found in some of the BSA literature.

 

My bottom line is.... We, adult leaders nor his fellow Scouts cannot make him own up. Only he can feel guilt, accept responsibility and own up.

 

Good Luck with the tent!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

 

[evmori]

We don't know who was in the tent when the damage was done?

 

There had been 3 boys who slept in this tent. Each is responsible for the tent.

 

If you are the passenger in a car that gets stopped for speeding? should you also get a ticket because you let the driver speed?

 

Not a valid analogy. Sounds like a BW argument.

 

If all 3 Lads done the damage all 3 are guilty, but we each of us are responsible for our own actions and punishing the innocent doesn't seem in keeping with the Scout Law.

 

I agree punishing the innocent isn't the right thing to do but we don't know anyone is innocent in this situation. And no one has come forward & said they did nothing. And it is keeping with the Scout Law. Trustworthy, Obedient.

 

So I guess, Eamonn, if you saw someone ripping the legs off a chipmunk you would do nothing. That's sad.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, BW hasnt been around for quite awhile and I am sure many members who consider themselves long term posters here have no idea who you referenced. How about living in the present, not the past?

 

And do you not think that you owe Eamonn an apology over that chipmunk crack? What in any of his posts makes you think he would do such a thing? or actually not do?

[evmori]

Ed, BW hasnt been around for quite awhile and I am sure many members who consider themselves long term posters here have no idea who you referenced. How about living in the present, not the past?

 

Since my post was in response to Eamonn, I'm sure he will understand the reference. You did, OGE. BW last posted 9/28/2005.

 

And do you not think that you owe Eamonn an apology over that chipmunk crack? What in any of his posts makes you think he would do such a thing? or actually not do?

 

I asked a question. The response from Eamonn speaks for itself. Read his post on 8/9/2006: 5:53:21 AM. If I have offended anyone, I apologize.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SemperParatus]

Alvin...Alvin...ALVIN!!!

 

Eagle309,

While I am sure your motives are sincere in helping this boy develop his 'character', I am afraid that getting someone to 'tell the truth' on demand when they do not want to and it is not in their nature is nearly impossible without resorting to polygraph machines, torture and the like. Truth-telling and taking personal responsibility is a trait developed over years and years of decisions. I suspect the only possible way to get the truth out of him this around is to eliminate any threat of punishment. Or, you turn this into an inquisition with accusers brought forward, testimonies, etc. In my opinion, neither of these alternatives are acceptable. I would go the soft road, having a discussion with him to share how disappointed you are in the fact that a scout would intentionally damage camp property and hide the fact and how you expect more from members of the troop. Don't accuse or blame, but play the sad scoutmaster that expects so much from his boys and feel let down. Maybe he'll feel sorry for you and fess up. Maybe not.