Goth vs. Boy Scouts

[fgoodwin]

GOTH: SHOULD PARENTS WORRY?

 

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/12976664.htm

 

By John Woolfolk

Mercury News

 

He goes from baseball and Boy Scouts to black gothic clothes and nail polish, from studying for a merit badge to poring over the ``Satanist's Bible.''

 

Parents of teenagers surely shuddered at the news of Scott Dyleski, the 16-year-old Lafayette boy accused in the savage beating death of a neighbor, the wife of a prominent lawyer and television commentator. After all, boys and girls sharing Dyleski's ``goth'' taste for medieval attire and morbid music can be found in just about any high school.

 

Does it signal simmering rage waiting to erupt in lethal violence, or just a harmless expression of individuality and creativity? Experts in teen psychology and juvenile crime say parents should resist fretting over their kids' wardrobes and musical tastes. What matters more is whether they have healthy relationships with their family and friends.

 

Anthony E. Wolf, a Massachusetts psychologist and author of books including ``Get Out of My Life, But First Could You Drive Me and Cheryl to the Mall: A Parent's Guide to the New Teenager,'' said family stresses from divorce or a sibling's death put teens at greater risk.

 

Tragedy a trigger?

 

Dyleski had suffered through ugly court battles between his divorcing parents and, more recently, the death of his sister in a car crash. Still, it doesn't necessarily follow that family tragedies spawn teen violence.

 

``In and of itself, is that going to trigger people to become violent? No,'' Wolf said. ``But obviously it's a big source of stress. It can increase chances that something further bad can happen.''

 

Shortly after his sister's 2002 death, classmates said Dyleski started wearing dark clothes, became more withdrawn and adopted a goth style popularized by shock-rocker Marilyn Manson. Goths, who often view themselves as outcasts, have been eyed with suspicion ever since two trench-coat clad teens at Columbine High School in Colorado massacred 12 classmates and a teacher in a 1999 rampage that ended in their suicides.

 

A person familiar with the family said it wasn't surprising that Dyleski adopted the goth style in the eighth grade. Dyleski's classmates at both middle school and high school were generally kids from well-off families living in affluent Lafayette. Dyleski and his mother had spent time camping in a lean-to on the property where they eventually moved into a house built by his mother's friends, where they lived in a sort of communal fashion.

 

``My opinion was always that he didn't fit in, so he made a point of not fitting in,'' said the person, who asked to remain anonymous.

 

Yet experts say a sudden affinity for black clothes and morbid music doesn't necessarily signal a violent teenager.

 

Warning signs

 

``It's not about what they're wearing, it's about what they're doing,'' said Don Elium, a marriage and family therapist in Walnut Creek and co-author of the 1992 book, ``Raising a Son: Parents and the Making of a Healthy Man,'' which was revised last year.

 

Elium said warning signs of a dangerously troubled teenager include a pattern of lying to parents, failing to keep commitments with them, and secretiveness about who their friends are and where they go with them.

 

``The No. 1 concern -- are they keeping their commitments with you, do they do the chores they say they are going to do, come in when they say they will?'' Elium said. ``Second is who do they hang out with and where? If you don't know, that's a red flag.''

 

Wolf agreed parents shouldn't overreact to their teens' dark fashion tastes.

 

``If a kid suddenly changes to dressing in black, is that a reason in and of itself to take my child off to see some kind of psychologist? The answer is no,'' Wolf said. ``On the other hand, it makes me be at least a little more vigilant, to think, are there other things going on in my kid's life? A lot of the kids who dress in goth style are genuinely really good kids. Sometimes, what that means is that you never really got into football.''

 

Wolf said that rather than looking for a checklist of danger signs, parents should trust their instincts.

 

``It's much better to err on the side of caution,'' Wolf said. ``If you're worried about it, I'd try to enlist the help of a professional.''

 

Dyleski's parents could not be reached for comment and it was unknown whether he had ever received any counseling after his sister's death.

 

Mike A. Males, senior research fellow at the Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice in San Francisco and a UC-Santa Cruz sociology professor, agrees that outside of obvious violent threats or behavior, warning signs aren't always apparent, even to professionals.

 

``There's too much guilt placed on people that they should have seen it coming,'' Males said. ``This isn't easy. Psychologists with years of training cannot see these things coming.''

 

Keep perspective

 

But Males urges parents to keep things in perspective, and warns of the dangers of overreacting.

 

``The comforting thing is something like this is extremely rare,'' Males said. ``There's been a tremendous over-commitment of teenagers to psychiatric facilities, over-medication, based on this fear that there's this weird teenage scourge out there. We've made this pathology about teenagers. Ninety-nine percent of teenagers who have traumatic experiences, who put black eyeliner on, who get into extreme sports, don't commit murders.'

[Cubmaster Jerry]

I remember when I was a kid and playing Dungeons and Dragons and how critics (not my parents) said that D&D delivered evil (devilry, witchcraft, etc) connotations to youth.

 

I remember when I was a bit older and two boys in Nevada committed suicide supposedly from the infulence of the Judas Priest song "Better by you, Better than me". Suddenly all Heavy Metal music was under the microscope.

 

I guess that means that I must have more than three lives because used to play D&D and still listen to Heavy Metal and yet, I'm still alive and at the very least, not on the verge of flipping out.

 

Folks, it's all about communication between the parents and their kids. While we all know it's a lot simpler in theory than practice, if parents work to create that bond of trust and openess at an age earlier than later, kids will less likely be so resistant. Everyone is naturally resistant to demands on them. Especially when there is such demanding overtones as a parent can be at times. Sometimes as parents we tend to be more demanding of our kids than we should. "I'm the parent. Do as I say." It's a lot easier to tell your kid to get up off the couch and get the newspaper from the driveway than you getting up to get it. But it's not necessarily right.

 

Jerry

[Hunt]

I can recommend a book called "Staying Connected to Your Teenager" by Michael Riera. It has lots of good tips for maintaining the lines of communication with your teenager.

[Trevorum]

There is a tremendous pressure on kids to fit into some recognizable sub-group. Everyone needs to belong. A kid will start to emulate in dress and speech those peers who accept him. These sub-groups then become self-defining. I ask my sons about some new kid, "So who's Mike?", and they will answer, "Oh, he's a 'kicker'", or "He's a 'prep'", or "He's a 'goth'". As if that tells me everything I need to know about Mike.

 

Two years ago, one of my sons became acquainted with a girl who dressed very 'goth'. She wore long black clothes, pasty white make-up, black fingernails, and had blue hair. She looked creepy to me. I was immediately suspicious of her character and the possible bad effect she could have on my son. I intensely questioned him why he would want to 'hang out' with a person whom I saw as a 'loser'. He told me she was really a nice person inside and had started dressing that way after her mom had died. In fact I had met her before, but didn't recognize her.

 

Today, she has recovered from her emotional turmoil and her goth period is past. She dresses in colors once more and her hair is blonde again. Thinking about this, I am chagrinned at my own intolerance. I was quick to judge a person by how they looked on the outside. My own son gave me a lesson in tolerance, just as father did. I'm proud of both of them.

[acco40]

Baden-Powell had a phrase for teens who want to fit in with a group - Goth or whatever. He called it the patrol method.

 

Now for some rash generalizations. Teenagers feel alienated. They "join" groups to feel like they belong. It could be constructive groups (Scouts, sports teams, high school band, robotics club, etc.) or destructive (Crips, Bloods, truants, drug abusers, etc.). It is our job as adults (parents, teachers, mentors, grandparents, etc.) to try and make them gravitate to constructive groups.

 

Is the "Goth" look in and of itself bad or good? No.

[Eamonn]

One Lad who received an Eagle Scout scholarship attended an Executive Board meeting, he had really great looking long blond hair. Our Council President who doesn't have much hair left remarked how when he started college he had hair almost that long.

I hop that we all remember how we went through different phases and how we followed what we thought was cool when we were young.

Sure some kids mess up and it's so easy to blame the look. But some Scouts mess up - Is Scouting to blame?

Eamonn.

(I loved Ziggy Stardust)

[EagleInKY]

Had a young man in my Woodbadge course. Had coal-black hair, tatoos and more piercings than I care to know about. One of the other adults from his troop said we were lucky, because he usually had more colorful hair options. I gotta admit that I prejudged him to an extent. He turned out to be a really nice young man. I don't know if he finished his ticket, but I think his troop is lucky to have him. (But I still wouldn't want my son to look like him) :-)

[acco40]

Hair color, hair length, beards, mustaches, clothes (to a certain extent), are all things that come and go (my hair sure "went"!). I don't have too much heartache when my kids exercise their freedom in these areas. Tattoos and piercings are another story. My 10 year old daughter still fights dear old dad because I won't allow her to get her ears pierced! But dad, I'm the only one in my whole class who doesn't have their ears pierced is a common refrain I hear on a weekly basis.

[Xavier_woodstock]

ok well, im 17 but i know about this, like i would say 80% of my friends are goth, and most ppl generalize on it, yes there Satanic music and such but not everythign like 10% of the goth culture has to do with the occult, what really means is making what "normal" or other ppl see as ugly they turn it into something beautiful. if you really sit down with a "goth" to talk they are really really intelligent ppl, they have a vast knowledge on Philosophy, arts and such. yes some are atheist but not cause he is goth.

 

and if you see most Teens who are goths are for problems in the house, like divorce and such. some do drink and smoke but not cause they are goth, look at "rappers" and other kids they really do it more than goths, some of them hate it. so id say theres a lot more too what meets the eye

[FScouter]

The "Goth" thing is something some young people may want to explore. There are 10,000 things in this world to explore. Look at it, explore it, enjoy it, then move on and explore something else. But don't stop at Goth, or anything else. Life learning is continuous.

[Hillis]

At 13 years-old last year, I became an Eagle Scout. At the time I had a mohawk. Getting a mohawk is something I do every year (from age 3 until present). It started out, when I was young, as an exploration. Now, as I've gotten older, it's turned into more of a way for me to show people that they shouldnt judge a book by the cover. I sport my mohawk yearly from January to May and often get questions, concerns, and quite a suprising number of mean glares from passer-bys. I feel that kids should be judged on the decesions they make and the things they do--not how they dress, or what music they listen to.

[scoutldr]

Unfortunately, people do judge by what they see. An employer will have to make a judgment as to "who do I want to represent me and by business?" Someone who is 5 feet tall and 360 pounds should not expect to get a job selling health club memberships. Someone who cannot write a complete sentence in proper English should not expect to get a job where writing and communicating is a valued skill. At one time not too long ago, IBM had a dress code...conservative blue or gray suit, clean shaven, white long sleeved shirt and conservative tie. Your suit coat would be worn at all times, except when seated at your desk. "Fair"? Maybe not, but how bad do you want a job?

 

 

The lesson is, rebel, explore and be "unique" all you want...it's a free country...just be aware that you may be severely limiting your opportunities by being "nonconforming" or appearing to be illiterate. Be prepared to accept the consequences of your choices, whether you view it as "fair" or not. It's not "right" or "wrong"...it just "is".(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Beavah]

Dress does project an image about someone, if you're smart enough to read it. Me personally, I think twice before I hire anyone who wears a suit. It often means they are more focused on personal appearance and "power"/advancement than on service.

 

Goth dress in teens is a good external indicator for a young person who is independent, of above-average intelligence, and likely to be exceptionally kind and accepting of others. But, yes, it also can be a tip off to a teen struggling with depression.... but actively struggling by seeking out this support group.

 

For many jobs, I'd be more apt to hire a "Goth" teen than a football player. Of course, I'd take a scout, Goth or otherwise, first... but only if they wore their scouting commitment on the inside, not (just) on their shirt.

 

 

[eagledad1]

You post quite a bit.You must care about quality of time kids have a lot and seem well informed.I was worried about dungeons and dragons,whn a movie on tv came out where one kid became obscessed with it towards suicide or some other detrimental character behavior.But my cousin,whom works at local tv station,was recently in tv story about 30th anniversary of the game.And he turned out normal,and he plays it with his kids.And he wuthored some kind of video game book,some time ago.Does anyone know if the troops which are on indian tribal lands across the nation(U.S.A.)cooperate about youth solutions to violence,not quite on scale of the Columbine experience,but still distressing? A reservation other than Red Lake(in news about 8 murders)has seen beatings and other violence.Sicne you post on a variety of topics,are you privy to siutation about scouts coming from minority backgrounds across the country,as well as native american kids? I was told that scouts in other nations are autonomous,much like different countries have defendable borders,and whatever other measures make a country a country(or a nation)in eyes of other nation.Would experience of giing for Eagle using alternate book for person with a disability weighted differently in practice for kids whom have a minority background.There shouldn't be,but maybe there is when groups like Boys and Girls clubs are understaffed,with part-time workers and no male role models around? That is one aspect fo tv report which was highlighted.And does Bureau of Indian Affairs encourage groups like scouts for youth? Maybe the goth kids would know of some indian(native kids) from an online game,say?

[eagle90]

Huh?