Understanding of Spirit of Scouting. - The Example Adults set.

[Eamonn]

While I do see my take on the Scout Oath and Scout Law as being a very personal thing. I do not see playing this game by the rules of the game as being a personal political agenda.

While I know that many will disagree with me, I do feel very strongly that if you refuse to play this game by the rules you are playing the wrong game and you need to go elsewhere and find a game that you can play.

We as adults do set the tone and do set the example. Adults who use a cafeteria style of leadership are doing the youth we serve a great disservice.

Adults who place the youth we serve in harms way are guilty of gross negligence. Not to mention the example they are setting.

Sure it might seem like harmless fun to have young Scouts leaping over fires as part of a stupid and non BSA approved initiation ceremony. However the real harm comes when Scouts see that this sort of thing is all fine and dandy then decide that they will try it with bigger and better fires when the adults are not around.

Allowing Scouts to participate in activities without the proper equipment and correct training is just down right and out right dumb. It has nothing to do with my personal political agenda.

I just do not understand how an adult leader can claim to have Scout spirit when they are blatantly and brazenly not keeping the Scout Oath and Law.

As leaders we are placed in a position of trust, parents don't know all the rules. Scouts look to us and at what we do, they follow the example we set. When we say that not following the rules is OK. Or when we show a total disregard for what is laid down in BSA literature. This clearly isn't in keeping with helping young people make ethical decisions, in fact it is the exact opposite.

Maybe the BSA does lack some checks and measures that would help ensure that people who are not playing this game by the rules are not allowed to continue with setting the bad example that they set.

My great fear is that nothing will be done to get these people out of our organization before a youth member is harmed.

My great hope is that they will see that this really isn't the organization for them and they will leave.

Eamonn.

[Kudu]

Sure it might seem like harmless fun to have young Scouts leaping over fires as part of a stupid and non BSA approved initiation ceremony. However the real harm comes when Scouts see that this sort of thing is all fine and dandy then decide that they will try it with bigger and better fires when the adults are not around.

 

You and your fellow-travelers can't find that specific quote, can you?

 

You say things that are not true. What kind of "example" is that?

 

Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[jr56]

I don't recall reading about an intitiation ceremony where boys jump over a campfire with adults permission. But I agree with the principle of your post, we must set the proper example at all times as registered leaders.

[Eamonn]

Who posted?

"Jump over open campfire (apparent it was done before my time with the troop to 'initiate' new scouts)

The attraction of "secret" campfire rituals is universal. Try your own new Scout initiation ceremony based on traditional Scout campfire war dances and war songs performed with Scout Staves"

Eamonn.

[Kudu]

Who posted?

 

"Jump over open campfire (apparent it was done before my time with the troop to 'initiate' new scouts)

The attraction of "secret" campfire rituals is universal. Try your own new Scout initiation ceremony based on traditional Scout campfire war dances and war songs performed with Scout Staves"

 

 

Three different people, actually:

 

Jump over open campfire (apparent it was done before my time with the troop to 'initiate' new scouts)

 

Was written by OneHour and he appears to be opposed to the practice.

 

The attraction of "secret" campfire rituals is universal. Try your own new Scout initiation ceremony based on traditional Scout campfire war dances and war songs performed with Scout Staves:

 

Was written by me, and it does not advocate jumping over fires. Significantly, like Bob White, you snipped off the most important part of the sentence:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm

 

which was written by Baden-Powell and although very wild and scary, it does not include jumping over fires.

 

Teaching scouts to jump over open flames is contrary to everything we teach in scouting about safety.

 

was written by Bob White.

 

Again, read what I actually wrote.

 

was written by me.

 

The OA does not have you LEAP OVER FIRES. so that is not a very good comparison.

 

was written by Bob White after ignoring the request to read what I had actually written.

 

Again, I proposed the Eengonyama war dance as an alternative to leaping over fires.

 

was written by me.

 

Sure it might seem like harmless fun to have young Scouts leaping over fires as part of a stupid and non BSA approved initiation ceremony.

 

Was written by you after ignoring all of the above.

 

As far as I can tell, nobody here is in favor of jumping over fires. Can we agree on that?

 

Now, what is your next quote?

 

Kudu

[evmori]

And I always thought Jack of the Jack Be Nimble tale was a little nuts!

 

Jumping over a campfire? Why? Never heard of any type of ceremony or initiation that had anything to do with jumping over a campfire!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

"There are more things in heaven and on earth than are in your philosophy, Horatio."

[Eamonn]

If I am guilty of not understanding what was written, please accept my apology.

Maybe you could explain how I came to not understand the following:

Canoeing on moving water without prior training or planning is one of our Troop's most popular events.

Just asking.

Eamonn.

[packsaddle]

As I remember, 'Jack-be-nimble' referred to a candlestick, not a campfire. And nothing in the rhyme mentioned that the candle was necessarily burning at the time either, although I suppose it would be more likely than not.

Eamonn, if I read something like the statement you quote about canoeing in an unsafe manner, I would interpret it to be sarcasm. It just doesn't make sense to me any other way...unless you can place it in a different context. So where did it come from?

[Kudu]

Eamonn writes:

 

Maybe you could explain how I came to not understand the following:

 

"Canoeing on moving water without prior training or planning is one of our Troop's most popular events."

 

Eamonn,

 

Apparently you are only reading Bob White's posts. Bob only quoted part of the sentence.

 

OneHour had written,

 

My question is how do we, as a troop and of course the usual ... boy plan, lead, and execute ... a program that will integrate high adv into the regular troop program. I'm looking for examples....

 

Here is the situation. Currently, we have about 12 'older scouts' who came from the time when our troop was 95% adult-run, which allowed them to do things that would go against G2SS guidelines. These boys complained that the new scoutmasters do not allow them to have fun any more. On the contrary, the PLC decides the events we ask various G2SS guideline questions. They elected not to do some of the events....

 

Here are some that we didn't ban...but advised them that either they find ways to satisfy G2SS or they should consider another event:

...

- Canoeing on moving water (w/o prior training or planning)

....

 

 

My original reply, and subsequent clarifications are as follows:

 

Canoeing on moving water without prior training or planning is one of our Troop's most popular events, especially with parents! We hire a local Scouter-owned outfit that provides the canoes, equipment, food, registered guides, etc. for $60 per participant. It would be a lot cheaper to do it ourselves, but who wants to train or plan? :-) We do require Swimming and Canoeing Merit Badges to participate.

 

...

 

Seriously, an outfitter canoe trip is better than postponing a canoe trip until an inexperienced PLC somehow figures out how to plan one.

 

In our case, the outfitter company is owned by the Scouters who run our Council's yearly adult canoe training course. They offer a number of standard trips based on the experience of the people participating. This means that they are familiar with the current conditions of these different stretches of moving water.

 

The beginner's package always begins with "hands on" instruction in maneuvering a canoe in moving water, which our Scouts do not learn in their prerequisite summer camp Canoeing Merit Badge courses. As the tour proceeds downstream, the instruction becomes more advanced as the conditions become more challenging.

 

Most local commercial outfitters offer similar skill-level based packages.

 

I agree that using weekly Troop meetings to prepare for the next trip is half the fun. I'm just saying that package tours run by professional licensed guides are perfect for Troops like OneHour's where the PLC does not have enough high adventure experience to plan a high adventure trip.

 

...

 

My impression is that the PLC and the Scouters have reached a stalemate over G2SS issues. To me the solution is obvious, simply sidestep the impasse by hiring professional white water and canoe outfitters recommended by his local Council. This allows outside adults to introduce G2SS rules free from any ongoing personality conflicts.

 

...

 

So if your older Scouts have no redeeming virtues what-so-ever, then forget that PLC stalemate, forget "leadership development," forget planning, forget the Guide to Safe Scouting, and find a local Council-approved outfitter who incorporates all of that important stuff in a neat little commercial package. The registered guides are in charge on the water...not you.

 

 

It sounds to me like this Troop's older boy program has run into an absolute roadblock because the Scouters are holding the Outdoor Method hostage to Leadership Development.

 

I stand by what I wrote. There is nothing in the Guide to Safe Scouting that prohibits BSA Canoe Instructors and/or professional registered guides from teaching moving water techniques on moving water. In our case the ratio is about one instructor for every three Scout canoes.

 

If we are done with the personal attacks, then let us abandon this thread and return to the discussion topic:

 

Need Ideas, Past Lessons, Current Process ... for Older Scouts Program

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=110536&p=1

 

Kudu

 

[anarchist]

Understanding the spirit of scouting and "Canoeing without training or planning"....

 

Kudu, was offering One Hour a "short cut" to a fun activity...

(in my mind, a diservice to the boys needing to "own" their program, and a legal and ethical quandary for their leadership). Show them the way, help them plan, sell "the plan"!

 

In many areas outfitters offer fairly safe, group-rate canoe trips on mild rivers (the south Fork of the Shenanndoah come to mind in my neck of the woods). For the most part these are rivers your grandmother could float (sorry, Grams) with little "normal" risk. Like outfitter-run white water rafting everyone signs a release and gets a video "training session" and a short speach, is issued a paddle and PFD, then hits the water. The outfitter transports boats, maybe even provides lunch, or a campsite and picks up boats and gear afterwards...clean, painless; sorta spoon-fed "adventure".

 

I understand much of what KUDU was offering to One Hour...I just don't agree with it...and some of it was just "said", (I think), to needle the rest of the posters...

 

The young men who don't know how to plan...need to be taught and led, not spoon-fed activities...And as it has been said before "it is not so much what you are selling as how you sell it"! Boy led is not always "ADULTS- HANDS OFF!" Sometimes, adults need to sell the program and sell the "planning lessons". In many cases it is not so much as directing a PLC as taking the SPL aside and selling him the program then backing him up as he leads his troop to a higher level...with our guidance!

 

Philosophically speaking, many who fancy themselves "real men" (calm down KUDU this is not a slam)wish the world (BSA) wasn't rushing so headlong into "dumbing" down the outdoor program. They (we?) lament the good old days when "boys could be boys" and adults could play along...When capturing a snake for study (and release) was not prohibited under the ruse of leaving "nature in nature" -rather than careless young men get bit mishandling snakes. They long for the days before "couch potatoes"; when youngmen, "made their own fun"...yes sometimes STUPIDLY, as in jumping into lakes and rivers before SSD or Safety Afloat came along, or maybe even jumping over fires (thought KUDU NEVER said anything near that), paintballing "B-B gun Cowboy and Indians anyone?.

 

Eamonn has taken that discussion to heart and seems to view any digression or even musing as a nefarious effort not only to distroy Scouting but as a dark endeavor to wantonly injure the young men in our care. I doubt if it is nearly as bad as that on any front. The present day prohibitions are nearly all the work of liability lawyers...but in todays world they are not necessarily bad.

 

There are few things harder to deal with than having a lad in your charge injured (or worse)on an adventure. The pain and recriminations, dealing with parents who want to know how you could let "this" happen to their son and then the law suits...

 

And as I have explained to both my boys...We may not agree with the rules BSA has laid out for us to follow...we may attempt to change them (fat chance)through discourse with national BSA. But, if we do not follow the rules of our organization what kind of example do we set for those looking up to us? And sadly, (my boys understood this reason even more), If a lad is injured and we have not followed the rules BSA insurance does not cover our actions...our family could lose everything, money, house and certainly bank accounts...Both boys even the one that says "the adults have taken all the fun out of Scouting", understood that ramification...

 

I fully agree that one way to demonstrate "the spirit of scouting" is following the BSA rules...(a hold over from the 'military' beginning of scouting?)

Just as importantly, if I want to play in someone elses 'house' I play by their rules...I am not sure, however, that I agree with following those rules blindly, unquestioningly, nor quitely, "protecting" or not letting our charges hear the occaisional "grouse"...about "stupid lawyers and their rules"...Its part of the American experience; a healthy scepticism of unnecessary and/or abitrary rules (sorry Eammon, it's what we do).

 

And, finally, once again I fall to the defense of the "bad guys"... the rule breakers...Without being there and "seeing" the whole story... we here in this forum have a tendancy to paint "those people" as twits (I love that word) or worst. (BW, the "death trap" post was WAY over the top!)

 

When we have differences, lets discuss them and try not to take so much to heart. Passion is good...in fact its great but misplaced or unchecked it can distroy much.

Try to keep in mind that very few men and women become scouters to distroy the system or hurt our kids...the vast majority started because they wanted to help and while we may disagree with their actions or methods we should not let it disrupt the flow of ideas. You can not educate or change anything with silence.

 

Anarchist

[packsaddle]

Thanks Kudu, that explains it.

I haven't missed the delicious irony, by the way, that the writer urging calm and constructive conversations to avoid disruption is.....Anarchist.

[scoutingagain]

Not all of us adult scouters are fully trained & experienced wilderness guides, whitewater experts, rockcimbing instructors, Certified Scuba instructors, NRA firearm instructors, BSA Lifeguards. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the services of a qualified outfitter with knowledgeable instructors and guides to introduce an outdoor/adventure activity to the scouts.

 

While I would be comfortable leading a group on a moderate backpacking trip, in no way am I, or anyone in our unit qualified to do whitewater rafting. Does that stop us from whitewater rafting? No, we use the services of a qualified outfitter and go have a good time. It's those units that try and save a few pennies here and there and try and do things themselves when they really aren't qualified that get people hurt or worse.

 

I understood what Kudu was saying and don't think it took too much in the way of reading comprehension to do so. I didn't see that he was doing anything that violated the Scout Oath Law or G2SS. Some folks just seem to have a pretty low opinion of adult scouters.

 

SA

 

 

[Bob White]

Scouting is not about taking kids on trips. To bypass training boys, skipping teaching them to plan, not giving them the opportunity to practice and apply skills, and instead just hiring someoine to 'take them' is not good Boy scouting (No matter how much "fun" you might find it).

 

The personal growth that Boy Scouting builds comes from the planning and learning, Not from just being taken on trips, that's Cub Scouting not Boy Scouting.

 

I think Eamonn's original post was dead on.

 

[evmori]

Jack's not nimble

Jack is pouting

Jack can't jump over the Guide to Safe Scouting

 

Bob,

Are you suggesting not taking a Troop on these type of trips if the leaders in the Troop aren't trained in the activity?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10