Reply to Kristi's concern on safety

[juris]

Kristi.....That was one of my biggest concerns in runing my Troop, that every boy should come home happy,safe and full of exciting stories to tell.Safety is not the priotiy in Adult Leadership trainings that I have taken, they glance over it as comen sence . Instead they lecture us in sexual abuse. Example : Scoutmaster was encouraged to take his boys on a Winter Camporee....,with poorly equipt (most of them were poor boys ) All the big shot's in Scouting attended,. The weather became unbearably cold. All the so called experts in winter survival went home, had cabins or stayed in their RV,s or vans.But, but this unit was going to survive, afterall they were trained by the district staff ? The camporee staff told him "you must teach boys cold weather camping !"....The outcome was that three of his boys had severe frost bite (one amputation)...The parents suit...BSA Inc.They did not support the Scoutmaster, they all blamed him, and not the SPL who listened to the boy run training course .( remember it is a boy run unit)The sm should not interfere ? . The entire district training commitee, negatd that they were pushing units for cold weather camping. You won't find this article in our " co called Scouter magazine, only in the a local newspaper. You are correct, BSA adult training has much to be improved. Glad that you pursuing this matter.Juris...." read some other statements I have on the forum "

[Bob White]

Of course the scoutmaster was held responsible. He or she is the program leader.

 

Are you saying that the CO selected an adult who wasn't smart enough to be aware of the inherent dangers of living outdoors in the winter to be their scout leader?

 

The BSA handbook, the BSA Field Book, OKPIK training, Boys' Life, Scouting Magazine, Roundtables, The Guide to Safe Scouting, the Scoutmasters Handbook in addition to a mountain of locally available resources, all have information that would have prevented these injuries. However, the adult has to make the effort to gather the knowledge.

 

Parents...if your child is being lead by someone who does not understand that you need to prepare BEFORE you go on an activity then take your child out of that unit or insist that a leader with some amount of common sense is selected for leadership. It's a dangerous world out there, it always has been. Scouting can teach your child how to be better prepared to avoid injuries and enjoy the adventure that surrounds them, BUT the unit leader has to have a brain.

 

The BSA does not select unit leaders. The BSA does not perform lobotomies or transplants. The adult must come with their own cranial grey matter the BSA does not take away or insert the hardware they just provide additional data on request.

 

 

 

 

 

[bbng]

Please provide the newspaper reference to the incident. I am having difficulty following what you've typed.

 

As for safety, leaders have many tools to use, and most wouldn't want to have it read to them at training. The Guide to Safe Scouting, Health and Safety, and the Boy Scout Handbook deal with safety issues as do many other publications. If a unit was told to teach boys could weather camping, and the result is that 3 boys ended up with frostbite, quite frankly, that unit didn't bother to use the resources available to it. I'm not sure how that is district's or council's fault, nor how it would be the fault of the BSA (if that is what you were getting at).

[SR540Beaver]

Juris,

 

District staff does not train units. Camporee staff can't tell you what to do. If the unit wants to pull up stakes and head for the house at any point of an outing, they are free to do so.

[Prairie_Scouter]

I can't speak for every local program, but when I took winter camping training, and at EVERY Klondike I've been to, the event leaders have always said, "this is NOT a survival outing. If you get cold, there are warming shelters nearby; do not hesitate to use them".

 

I think any event leader or training person who says otherwise is a fool. The training can keep you alive if you get into a bad situation, but in the mostly contrived situations you encounter in Scouting in many areas, the smart thing, and what we are trained to do, is to get out.

[cajuncody]

I have taken YPT 2 times in the past year (my card never made it to council so I took it from my council's web site to print it out). I have also within the past year taken : NLE, Leaderspecific, Safe Swim Defense, CPR, First Aid, and have been to National Camp School to be Camp Director. All of this training is current and yet very little dealt with the buddy system. The only Lost Scout training I received was at National Camp School which most Scouters never attend. I think that it would be a good idea for the BSA to include Lost Scout training in YPT because it is much easier to find a lost boy within minutes of his becoming lost then when the "local authorities" arrive.

It may be common sense to catch a lone scout walking through camp but our YPT says no one on one, I think a lone scout heading down a trail would be a good exception to that rule, not go find another adult and hope to catch up with him. Simple things have been overlooked in the list of LDS scouts missing or killed that could have prevented those incidence. For example if the clmbing tower instructor had immediatly checked on the scout that was having problems getting unhooked when his friends walked off he may have been found sooner and closer to camp and I would be willing to bet that what I just typed went through his head as the search went on. We need to take the "What ifs" and plan to use them.

Just my 2 cents.

Kristi

[Lynda J]

Yes the SM is responsible. If I am taking kids cold weather camping, and believe me I have. I make sure they are packed properly. THis includes warm clothing, how to dress in layers. How to take a 45 degree sleeping bag and turn it into a 0 degree bag. There is no reason for kids camping at camporee to get frostbite. No not all this comes in training. You can't teach common sense. And if this leader had boys get frostbite it is a lack of common sense on that leaders part. I camped with my GS troop once in 6" of ice. It dropped to 11 degrees. We were iced in and spend 4 extra days camping. Guess what no one girl suffered any problems. They all had proper clothing and gear. And guess what, it was in North Texas. So not an area that normally drops that cold. Or has that much ice.

 

Training teaches you policies, and rules. Common sense you have to furnish on your own.

[bbng]

From the Salt Lake Tribune

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2825225

 

Ordeal leads Scouts to consider age policy

 

GUIDELINE MAY BE HONORED

In the wake of the Brennan Hawkins ordeal, the Utah Boy Scouts will review whether to enforce the organization's guideline that suggests younger boys not be included in activities organized for older Scouts.

"Our safety and camping committee will look into it. This is definitely an issue," said Kay Godfrey, a spokesman for the Great Salt Lake Council of the Boy Scouts of America. "The nature of [the Hawkins] event is something we have to address. We will take a look at how we can ensure a stronger safety net around our youth."

Hawkins, 11, attended a three-day camp-out June 17-19, which drew about 1,500 Varsity Scouts, 14 to 17 years old, at the East Fork of the Bear River Boy Scout Reservation in the Uinta Mountains. He was the guest of his 11-year-old friend Brian Christensen and his father, Martin Christensen, a Scoutmaster for a Bountiful troop.

Hawkins wandered away from the camp Friday evening and was missing for four days and four nights. But just before noon Tuesday, Hawkins was spotted by searchers near Lily Lake.

 

= = = = = = = = = = =

 

An 11-year-old at a camping event for 14- to 17-year-olds. This should never have happened due to the age guidelines already in place. It seems to me that this is a perfect example of what can go wrong when the guidelines provided are not followed. I'm glad this boy is safe, know that accidents happen, but now it sure seems that this was preventable. It's done now, but it should be a lesson to us all: we truly do need to pay attention to the guidelines offered by BSA. I'm glad the council is reviewing this too.(This message has been edited by bbng)

[Beavah]

Right.

 

Da BSA is always flawless and anything that goes wrong is the unit leader's fault. Anything that goes right is because of da BSA program.

 

Buffalo Biskits.

 

Read about the latest scouting fatality on the Animas River. One boy dead, multiple boys endangered. Da DE says it was all done "by the (BSA) book" and must be a freak accident. Everyone else wit real knowledge and skill in the articles say that this was an obvious, well-known, well-marked dangerous hazard. Da BSA talks about how they did swim-checks, before paddlin into a trap that an Olympic swimmer would not survive.

 

So much for the Gospel of BSA Program.

[Bob White]

With your vast scouting experience you must obvioulsy be aware that the BSA does not conduct the swimm tests, choose the activity, selects the run of river, makes sure the PFD is worn and fits properly, or selects responsible leaders.

 

You also know who is responsible for all those things...The scout unit and specifically the scoutmaster. So why are you trying to say that the BSA was somehow responsible?

 

When things go well in a unit it to the leaders credit, so when they go badly it is also to their discredit. What is so unfair about that?

 

 

[cubbingcarol]

I used to use the word Da, then I graduated Jr. High.

 

Carol

[le Voyageur]

The problem with the concept of safety, is that it infers that a program is free from harm. The truth is, is that no program is free from harm. Therefore, the better tack is to reduce unsafe behaviors through risk management.

As such, every outdoor program has two areas of risk, one is objective, and the other is subjective. And from my own experience, it is the subjective risks (examples...no training, outdated training, under trained, no experience for the activity, egos, self deception on ablities, etc) that gets us into the deep kemchi very quickly.

 

From my perspective, BSA National needs to do a better job in this area, and consider creating training courses in Wilderness Risk Management for Adult Leaders....this way, when a unit sits down to plan a wilderness trek, or a run on a whitewater river, the first item on the agenda won't be the menu....

[scoutldr]

In my profession we talk about risk vs. hazard. A hazard is an unsafe act or unsafe condition (there is no such thing as an "accident" or "act of God" -- everything is preventable). Risk is the probability that the hazard will cause an adverse affect, such as death or injury. For risk to increase, there has to be exposure to the hazard. Risk can be minimized through training, experience, discipline, and careful analysis of each activity to ensure that hazards are identified and mitigated prior to exposure. If a leader is not comfortable that every hazard can be minimized, then he should cancel the activity. For those youth and adults who create unsafe acts or conditions, the penalty should be severe and sure. There is no room for error when you have others' lives in your care. The Guide to Safe Scouting has done a fairly good job of identifying hazards associated with common Scouting activities. It should be required reading for every registered Scouter and youth leader.

[OldGreyEagle]

I used the word "Da" until I left the Chicago area and relaized how different I sounded from everyone else, yet Da'Bears still rule (even if they suck!)

 

Anyway, lets take a look at the opening post. Does anyone live in a district that would openly, actively and coerce non-trained, ill equipt boys to camp in freezing temps? If the Scoutmaster takes such a group, is not he/she responsible for the group?

 

I would first ask if documentation of the alleged event can first be found however as something has an ill aroma in the land of the Danes.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[scoutldr]

Whilst the opening post spurious may be, it behooveth all to whom these words may come, to heed, lest we become repast for the annelidae.