Discipline Issue - Need opinions

[CA_Scouter]

I have a discipline issue that I'd like to get some feedback on from experienced scouters. Sorry for the long post, but I want to give you as much information as I can...

 

On our campout this weekend, the scouts were a bit rambunctious, so we had a couple of minor discipline issues to address ( throwing items, running through the campground, VERY noisy ), so I took the troop aside, and informed them that any unscoutlike behavior would have consequences ( call home, duct tape the to a tree... you know what I mean.. :-0 ) . Furthermore, I made a distinct point about them acting as gentlemen, meaning I expected them to be considerate of their neighbor and of other scouts.( I am keeping this description short to focus more discussion on the bigger problem ).

 

Later that day, one of our patrol leaders, a Star Scout ( 14yr old ), made a trip down to the restroom area with several of his younger charges (11yr olds) - Buddy System, OK, you get the drift here....

 

They ran across several young ladies of similar age at the facilities at the same time, where they engaged in some conversation ( of what subject matter I do not know ). As the young ladies entered the restroom, our Star Scout blurted out 'All I want to do is to f*** you.'.

 

Unfortunately for this Star Scout, an ASM had just finished taking a shower in the same facility, heard the comment, and confronted the scout about it. The Star Scout admitted he had made the comment, and apologized for it.

 

The ASM immediately returned to the adult site, informed me of the incident, and I gathered the rest of the ASM's, and our committee chair, and we discussed the situation. We were all apalled and moritifed that a Star Scout in our unit would use such vulgar language and act that way to a young lady.

 

As we see it, he engaged in sexual harassment, ignored a direct statement from he adult leadership to behave in a scout-like, and set an extremely poor example for his young scouts. He also brought shame and embarassment to our troop, as he was wearing his class B t-shirt at the time, and was easily identifiable as a scout.

 

We decided to suspend the scout from the next meeting, temporarilty demote him from PL to APL for the month of June, and require him to complete a one page essay regarding sexual harassment before returning to the next troop meeting.

 

Not to mention that the young lady's parents could have pressed the issue and put the troop, its leaders and the boys parents at risk for litigation.

 

Later that evening, one of my ASM's did a routine check on their campsite, and found this scout pounding a kitchen knife into the picnic table, apparently in anger. When the ASM told him to stop, he stuck the knife into the table, and without a word, stalked off into his tent.

 

We spoke to his mother upon returning this afternoon, and she was also mortifed of her son's behavior. She promised to speak to him this evening.

 

Got it so far? Good, because I have more....

 

I just received a call from my committee chair, who had spoken to another parent this evening, upon which we found out that this same Scout had harassed another scout last night, in fact, poking him with a long fork ( normally used for marshmallows ), poking holes in his sleeping bag, holes in his sleeping pad, and poked him in the arm, and actually drew blood.

 

So, to say the least, I am not happy. I have a scout who has engaged in sexual harrassment and has presented extremely poor leadership qualities/examples to my newest scouts. Additionally, he has violated his Totin Chip rules, and obviously has some major anger issues.

 

As we have a Committee Meeting tomorrow night, we have added these incidents as an agenda item to discuss.

 

SOME FACTS:

 

This scout has had discpline issues in the past, and was demoted from the rank of Den Chief and suspended from activities for 6 weeks ( last year ).

 

His mother is a committee member, and he has a younger brother in the troop ( this has little to no weight in how I/we ultimately decide to handle this, but its worth mentioning for background info ).

 

The scout lost his father when he was 6-7 years old ( car accident ), and his mother remarried. The step father is a decent fellow, but I'm sure things are pretty complicated at home.

 

I personally now consider him to be a safety issue, if not a danger to, the other scouts.

 

A STATEMENT FROM ME:

 

As much as I try to emphathize with peoples individual hardships, I am not equipped to handle the psychological issues that I see manifesting here. I am not trained in child development, child psychology or social work. ( I have basic SM training ). I am here to provide a good outdoor program, and to prepare these young scouts to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by installing in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

We have additional consequences in mind now that we have this new information, but I'd like to get input from a variety of sources before we make a decision. At this point, our plan is to interview the scouts in his patrol to determine the facts, some of which is hearsay at this point. After we determine the exact sequence of events, we'll probably call another committee meeting to discuss what kind of action to take....

 

Yes, we are documenting these incidents, and will document the disciplinary procedures for this Scout, once we gather and verify all the facts.

 

WHAT I NEED FROM YOU:

 

I'd sure like to hear from anyone who has had a similar discipline problem, and how they managed to resolve it.

 

We have a committee meeting tomorrow night, 5/23/2005. I'll check for posts during the day tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

 

[madkins007]

I feel for you!

 

I think that some of this is a bit blown out of proportion and may be snowballing a bit. If the kid is having problems and feels dumped on because a stupid (but typical for the age) comment, he pretty much has a right to feel angry about it.

 

I sense (rather than know) that this kid needs support more than punishment, or at least more natural consequences for his actions. I really think the initial punishment should have been just to apologize to the girl, younger Scouts in earshot, and ASM privately- period. Follow up might have been a call to mom... maybe. The rest of the stuff seems to be making it unnecessarily public and harsh.

 

I am NOT condoning his actions, but I can easily see the punishments inflicted making him more bitter than interested in improving himself.

 

His past history is a part of it, but he should be treated fairly nonetheless. As for sexual harrassment... no touching? No follow up? No obscene gestures? I think that is going WAY to far. Stupid and vulgar, yes. A criminal act? I don't think so. personally, I think the committee involved blew it up too far. Easy to do in the heat of the moment, but not helpful to the unit or the Scout.

 

[Eamonn]

If I was the SM, I would report what happened to the Troop Committee, let them handle it and I would go on about my business of delivering the program.

If I was the Troop Committee Chair I would be far more concerned about the fork than the bad language and stupid behaviour at the shower house. I think I would contact the COR and inform him that the Lad has to leave the troop.

Boy am I glad that I'm not the Chair!!

Eamonn.

[evmori]

We have always had the hard & fast rule if you use the f word you go home. No questions asked.

 

Sounds like this Scout has anger management issues. Also, sounds like this is one of those kids who really needs the program. That said, I would recommend to your Troop Committee they suspend the Scout for 6 months. This suspension would include a loss of POR.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SemperParatus]

Definitely a lot of issues here.

 

As others have said, any disciplinary action should come from the committee, although you could recommend certain actions for its approval. All the facts need to be gathered and laid out for them so that they can make an informed decision.

 

My preference would be to have a conference with the scout and his parents before the committee takes action to try and ascertain what may be causing the behavior. You are most interested in making sure it never happens again. Punishment usually only results in temporary changes in behavior. Realizing that you are not equipped to handle the psychological issues, it still may be that the source for his behavior is easily discovered and some limited discussion can take place to help him understand appropriate actions. Then again, his anger may be deep seated and he needs professional help. In any case, a nice long chat could be beneficial to him and you. Hopefully, the parent can offer some insight on things that may be going on in his life.

 

We had a 'significant' discipline issue several years ago with two scouts. In both cases, the parents were mortified at their son's behavior. The punishment was suspension from camping trips for three months. One scout quit. The other is now one of our finest young men in our troop. The strange thing is that I would have guessed that if anyone quit it would have been the scout that later grew so much from the experience.

 

Good luck.

[orennoah]

While I admire your obvious compassion for this Scout, I fear that you are losing sight of the bigger picture, the safety of your other Scouts.

 

ANY Scout, regardless of his home life, who intentionally stabs another Scout is too much of a danger to the troop and MUST be barred from participation until he can PROVE that he is not a danger.

 

Additionally, the stabbing and the mutilation of the other Scout's gear are matters that should be referred to the juvenile justice system.

 

These behaviors are beyond anything that a volunteer adult leader should have to deal with. I say, "call in the professionals." That Scout likely needs some professional intervention and the rest of your Scouts need protection.

 

- Oren

[ScoutNut]

From the online Youth Protection Training:

 

"Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents or misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit."

 

In other words - the parents should be involved in every level of discussion about the child & his problem behaviour.

 

At the campout the boy should have apologized to the girls, the younger scouts & the ASM. The SM could have had a conference with him to discuss why his behaviour was inappropriate. Once home, the parents should have been called in for a conference to discuss possible repercussions.

 

 

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

Please note that I am familiar with YP guidelines, keeping parents informed, documenting the incident, asking the Scout to apologize, etc... I just chose not to include that information in my post, because it was immaterial to the purpose of the post.

 

I'm really just asking for comments from those who have had similar incidents, so that I can make a recommendation to the committee tonight. I want to be sure that I'm not too lax, nor too severe in my recommendation.

 

Thanks much All!

 

 

 

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Well, 1st a couple of thoughts, I think mirroring what some have said...

 

One, the comment to the young ladies. Vulger, yes. Stupid, yes. Sexual harassment? Most likely not.

 

Two, I'm a lot more worried about his actions with the knife/fork. That presents a danger to the other Scouts if he has trouble channeling his anger, which he almost certainly does, based on your comments.

 

Regards the comment to the ladies, I would have suggested a private reprimand. I try to avoid reprimands/counseling in front of the other Scouts.

 

Regards the knife/fork, this needs to be discussed with the parents. You are concerned about his behavior and the safety of other Scouts, and what are the parents going to do to ensure that the other Scouts are safe and that their Scout is well-behaved? If they don't convince you that he'll be ok (by some definite action, not just a promise), then personally, I wouldn't be comfortable having him in a tent with another Scout. And if I feel that way, I'd have to conclude that I don't want him on a campout.

 

I have had a couple of Scouts that have had anger management issues, although not to the extent that they cause danger to other Scouts. In both cases, my route was through the parents.

 

Others have said that this is the kind of boy who could really use the Scout program. That's probably true, but.......you can't help a boy if he presents a danger to the other scouts, and two, we are Scout Leaders, not child counselors, psychologists, etc., and are not qualified to assist children with deep seated emotional problems. And regardless of how much the program might be good for him, this is just Scouting, it's not a clinic for the emotionally unstable. I don't want to be overly harsh, but you can't take responsibility for something like that.

 

But, #1 and most of all, you have to work through the parents, keeping your committee aware of the situation.

 

 

[frank10]

Based on what I have read, the young man would first off be missing one camp out. Not so much as a punishment, but to allow the other scout a chance to get comfortable with the troop again.

 

Next, we'd have a long talk about what he wants out of scouting. as part of the talk, we'd develop an action plan that fit both the problem and the scout. I'd let him be the guide between punishment and redemption... More time away or time working for the food bank.

 

Also, we schedule a follow up talk or two until we both felt we had managed to put this behind us.

 

Assumed is that he would pay for all damages and make things right with the other scout.

[Bob White]

This boy needs professional counseling. What he did is not socially or morally acceptable in our society. It is especially not appropriate for a scout let alone a teenager.

 

Personally I would have called his mother the moment it happened and had her remove her son from the scout activity. This is not a momentary lapse in judgement that he had. This is a sign of a real problem that needs to be taken seriously by the adults in his life before it creates even bigger problems.

 

Staying home from a campout does not get the scout the help he needs.

 

The committee should insist that the scout get professional counseling before he will be allowed to return to the troop. What the parent does with that opportunity is her choice.

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

Just got back from the meeting. Here were my recommendations:

 

Scouts rank as patrol leader is revoked, no leadership for at least one year, and only upon SM approval.

 

Scout loses Totin' Chip ( duh! )

 

Scout is suspended from ALL troop activities for 3-6 months.

 

Upon return, scout must show some proof that anger management issues have been addressed, with the clear implication that professional help is required. I must have some guarantee for the safety of my other scouts.

 

Upon return, the scout is on a minimum 3 month probation, where a parent must be in attendence at ALL scout functions, including overnighters.

 

 

I presented these to the committee, we had some discussion, and then I left to go attend to the remainder of the troop meeting. During that time, the committee discussed the issue and approved just about everything. EXCEPT..... and this really frosts me, they changed the suspension to only being suspended from outings, and not from the weekly meetings! Their thinking was something to the effect that "well he'll just think that he has Monday nights free now, and that he's getting away scot-free".

 

My response was "OK, so now our scout meetings are a form of punishment? Are you kidding me?".

 

I do not want to see this kid at all for a while. He is a poor example of a scout, and I am tired of dealing with him, having to monitor his every move, and having to put up with his attitude. He crossed the line with me this time, causing injury to another scout, and exhibiting dangerous behavior ( I received additional information on the 'fork' incident tonight, it was worse than originally reported ).

 

My ASM's were incensed also. Not only did they ignore our very strong and VERY clear recommendations, they are permitting the kid to continue to work on advancement, and the rest of the troop will get the message that egregious acts do not result in appropriate discipline. Not only that, but they've compromised our authority and our ability to apply such discipline.

 

My ASM's and I spoke to the Committee Chair, and voiced our extreme displeasure at having our authority compromised in such a manner. She promised to contact the committee members this week and relay our displeasure at the situation.

 

As SM, I feel like I've been slapped in the face, and my authority cut off at the knees ( I've also run out of cliche's ). I am VERY UPSET, and so are my ASM's. I am of the state of mind at this point, that if the decision to permit him to attend the weekly meetings is not revoked, that the ASM's and I will sign a letter and deliver it to the committee, stating our intention to resign our positions, and even possibly pull our kids from the troop.

 

Of course, I am venting at this point, and the Committee Chair has always been a huge supporter of the SM and ASM's, so I think this ultimately will be resolved as we originally hoped it would. I should find out in a few days, so I'll add to this post then, because I'm sure y'all want to see how this thing finally works out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[orennoah]

I stand with you on this one.

 

As a SM, I would fully expect my decision not to be responsible for the behavior of a dangerous Scout to be upheld by the Committee. After all, it's the SM and the ASMs who have their reputation and assets on the line. If something goes wrong, AGAIN, it will be the adult leaders on the scene, the SM and ASMs, who will be held responsible.

 

I would seriously consider tendering my resignation in a situation like this. After all, it's not like we are getting paid to take that sort of risk.

 

Let us all be hopeful that, with the Committee knowing the seriousness of your and your ASMs concerns, the decision will be appropriately amended.

 

- Oren

[Bob White]

Just a tip CA either leave or stay, but never threaten to leave. Once you threaten it you diminish yourself as a leader. No committee chair wants to have the frustration of never knowing what is going to make you threaten to leave again and what isn't.

 

It does more to make you look bad as a volunteer than it does in making your point of your dissatisfaction. I understand your disappointment but either accept the decision of the committee (who are the ones responsible for determining the behavior contract with the scout), or present new evidence to change their decision, but do not use threats to get your way.

[evmori]

CA,

As a former SM, I feel for you. I completely agree with the recommendations you made to the committee. The committee dropped the ball here.

 

Keep us informed!

 

I'll add you to my prayer list.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10