How Dumb Do You Have To Be ?

[Eamonn]

I can see that there may be times when all the good stuff that we have learned and taught about Youth Protection needs to be looked at in view of the situation at hand. Sometime back I got stuck taking a Scout home from a Camporee in my car by himself. Looking back it was a very dumb thing to do and it was a bad judgment call on my part.

This past weekend I had to stop and pick up tables from the Scout Camp site near my home. It was a last minute thing, no one thought that we would need extra tables.

OJ and I took off bright and early. About half way it dawned on me that if there was a unit in camp using the building that they might be using the tables.

When we arrived at the site, we thought that we had better check in with the Campmaster.

At the site there is a new (About 5 years old) Campmaster Building. We knock on the door and enter. Inside we find the guy who was our District Commissioner and about six kids. He is the only adult. They are eating breakfast, having very clearly spent the night.

The guy already thinks that I hate his guts - Which isn't true. So I am left wondering what to do?

I meet our new DE at Banquet where the tables were needed and explain to him what is going on.

Later I ask if he has spoken to the guy? He tells me that he mentioned it to him and everything is OK, because it was his son and his sons pals. He also had permission to take these other kids.

The DE is new,so I explain that this sort of thing should never be allowed in the BSA.

This guy has presented YP training. He is aware of the rules.

There was a Webelos Scout Den using the other building, they are from our District. What sort of example are we setting when we try and set ourselves up above the rules?

At this time I'm unsure if I should take this to the Scout Exec. I will mention it to the Campmaster Committee.

Eamonn.

[EagleInKY]

I'm amazed when I see people making mistakes like this. I admit, like you, have gotten caught in between the rock a hard place from time to time. One time SWMBO volunteered me to stop and pick up a scout on a night when my son wasn't going to be there. I coached her on never doing that again. I don't mind picking them up if my son is with me, but I don't want to be alone with them.

 

I've seen a scouter take a homesick boy back to the campsite at summer camp. I called him on it, and he didn't see the big deal.

 

I've been left alone at a troop meeting before. While not against YPT, I still don't like it. I've always been able to get someone to come back.

 

E- What would I do? Not sure. I'm sure you're afraid this guy's going to think you have it in for him. I think the campmaster committee is a good approach. They should not allow a group to use the facility if there are not two adults present. That could nip it in the bud, at least for outings on scout property.

[Eamonn]

I was talking on the phone to my old DE, I mentioned this. She reminded me that it is because of things like this and him doing things like this is the reason that he is no longer the District Commissioner.

She said how he would do something dumb and she would sit him down and explain why it was dumb. He would act like he understood and then go and do exactly the same dumb thing.

He really is a nice guy, his biggest failing is that he wants everyone to like him. It seems that he just doesn't understand that there is a difference between being liked and being respected.

Pam (Ex-DE) feels that I really ought to go to the Scout Executive. I don't want too, but she feels we must safeguard the Council from any possibility of a multi-million law suit, which could happen years from now. We only have to look at what has happened in the Catholic Church to see the damage that could be done.I hear what she is saying and kinda know that she is right - But I'm going to sleep on it.

Eamonn

[FScouter]

Perhaps the campmaster should write to the offending unit that they did not honor the terms of the tour permit and that assurances must be made that a similar violation will not occur in the future.

CC: Scout Exec.

[Eamonn]

He was the Campmaster.

No paperwork was done and the Scouts were from the unit where he is just about everything. (Lions Club holds the charter he is president, COR and Pack and Troop committee chair)

Eamonn

[frank10]

Is this a Youth Protection violation or a GTSS violation?

 

Either way he is wrong, but it will help your case if you term it right.

(BTW: Being right doesn't always make you popular)

[Eamonn]

Two Deep Leadership is the very core of our Youth Protection and is in the G2SS.

Looking at what was /is the right thing to do. I did notify the SE.

I very simply informed him what I had witnessed.

I also said that I did not want to know what action he did or didn't take. That is none of my business.

Eamonn

[anarchist]

Eamonn,

 

some times I miss the good old days when we could take a chronic 'twit' out behind the barn and beat some sense into him...(JUST JOKING HERE!)

 

Unfortunately, the only beating we can do now is with the rule book (G2SS)...He needs to be dragged infront of district or better, council to account for his actions. He has put the unit, the CO, the district, Council and BSA at risk.

 

YES you will not be popular...at least in his book. But, if you read in the papers, ten years from now that some man says Mr. "X" did 'this' to me...(true or not)! How will it feel??? The whole movement is tarred with the same brush when twits make 'mistakes' (read-the press knows no boundaries). If dumbo can't follow the rules he should be removed from 'duty'.

 

We follow a three deep leader rule in our troop...so if one adult, at the last minute, has family/work/whatever emergency and pulls out we do not end up with a 'choice' of cancelling or breaking the rules...or scrambling for a back-up...it also allows for one adult leader to have some 'down time' during the event if needed. It is not that hard...just proper planning.

[scoutingagain]

The G2SS and YP Guidelines are not there just to protect scouts, although that is their primary purpose. They also protect adult leaders.

 

I would point out to the individual that yes he violated one of the rules, and that by doing so he opens himself up to potential accusations that he probably does not want to consider. How would he feel if a digruntled youth started spreading stories about what Mr. X had him do on an outing? Or how does he think it looks to other adults that he, a grown adult, wants to take a group of boys into the woods by himself? Ask him if he has enough $$ to hire the same lawyers Micheal Jackson has?

 

I'm not accussing him of anything, but I've seen prosecutors go after adults for child molestation charges on the flimsiest of evidence. (Sat on a jury where we aquitted a nice elderly gentlemen who had clearly been falsley accused by a neighborhood youth.) Maybe they have an honest interest in protecting children or maybe the know such cases are sure to attract press coverage.

 

I would never think of taking a group of boys camping on my own, not just for their sake, but for mine as well.

 

SA

 

 

 

 

[acco40]

Regardless of how you think this guy feels about you I would talk to him first. Two-deep leadership is required for all outings - not all meetings.

 

Last fall, two of our patrols decided to have a patrol outing (no adults required). It was the first time they had done this. I, the SM, gave them permission to do this. Actually, we (the troop) shared the same Scout ranch, it was just that the NSPs and the SM/SAs camped at a different location within the ranch. The first night the temperatures dipped quite a bit below freezing. No running water was available (shut-off for the season) and most of our water jugs, while not frozen solid, had spigots totally filled with ice. The next morning, I alone drove over to the site where the regular patrols were camping just to see how things were going - and with some fresh "non-hard" water if needed. Was I violating G2SS rules in doing so? In my opinion, no. In others opinion, who knows.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[FScouter]

"Was I violating G2SS rules in doing so?"

 

Was your visit one-on-one contact?

[EagleInKY]

FS got there before me. If no one-on-one contact was involved, all I see is a SM checking in on the boys and making sure they were okay. You weren't officially on the outing with them, just making sure they were okay. Would it have been better to have someone with you, sure... but I don't think it was a violation. But I'm not a lawyer.

[scoutingagain]

I understand there is a difference between two deep leadership and no one-on-one contact. However I believe there is a practicle difference say, between a meeting with new scouts, a troop guide and an adult leader in a separate room in a meeting hall for an hour while the rest of a troop meets elsewhere in the same building versus an adult taking a group of boys camping by himself for a weekend. To me an adult that wants to take boys camping by himself in knowing violation of BSA policy is a hugh red flag and the seriousness of the violation needs to be imparted to the individual involved. It's not just an oops, all of a sudden your alone with a scout around a campfire because everyone else went to bed or a scout's ride doesn't show up and now either he rides with you or he doesn't get home.

 

As noted in earlier responses, we all have the potential to find ourselves in situations where we end up one-on-one with a scout inadvertantly. We need to be mindfull and avoid these situations, but sometimes we still find ourselves in such a situation.

 

Acco, in my opinion your actions did not violate the G2SS or YP requirements, unless you got to the campsite and only one scout was awake and you were alone with this scout. Since it's cold, you let him sit in your vehicle with you. Now you find yourself in violation. A disaster ?, no, but a scenario that could be avoided.

 

Acco, you and others here have far more experience than I do and I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching or telling you what you should or shouldn't do. Having sat on that jury and witnessed the apprehension on that man's face during his trial as well as being geographically in the middle of the Catholic Church scandel, I've just grown sensitive to YP issues.

 

SA

[SemperParatus]

Joining the conversation a little late, but thought I would share another 'how dumb do you have to be' story...

 

Several years back it was our new troop's first summercamp (mostly 11-12 year olds). My son, another scout, another adult and I head down to the shower house early on Monday morning. The shower house is next to the pool and is clearly marked for separate facilities for men and boys. We split up and do our business. I am standing outside waiting for the boys and could swear I hear a man talking to the boys in the house. I pass it off as just an older scout. The boys come out and tell me that there is an old man in the scout shower. I peek in and sure enough there he is (about 70 years old) shaving with a towel wrapped around his waste. Just as I am about to go in, one of the lifeguards shows up and asks me what I am doing. I told him that there was a 70 year old naked man in the boys' shower house. The response was something like, 'oh, thats just ol' Charlie our shooting range instructor...he likes to come down early and use the boys shower because stall 2 has the hottest water...its okay, folks just know to come down after 7 am'. I was like WHAT?!? and made a beeline for the Camp Director's office. He did not seem too concerned about the whole thing, knew it had been going on for years and why everybody knows that the unofficial rule at the camp is that scout shower house does not open until 7 am so ol' Charlie can get himself cleaned up (of course, this is not printed or disclosed anywhere). Sure enough, for the rest of the week there was ol' Charlie in the boys shower house. I instructed our scouts that all showers would be taken at night rather than in the morning during the week. As we were an out-of-council troop, I never bothered to complain to the Council folks. I have always considered this one of the most bizarre (and stupid) situations I have encountered in scouting. Needless to say, that camp is forever on our blacklist. In hindsight, I should have blown the lid off of that practice but being an 'out of towner' and a first time summercamp SM, I did not feel at that time that my efforts would amount to much. Today, I would probably videotape the guy in the boys shower house and not stop until National closed the place down for retooling.

 

[nldscout]

Let me put on my flame suit here and play devils advocate.

 

What violations did he commit?

 

Did the Boys sleep in a seperate room from the DAD?

 

Was he one on one with the Boys? Doesn't appear so, therre were six boys.

 

Was this a scout outing? Nope

 

Were the Boys Scouts?

 

Lots of unanswered questions in my mind that I would ask before I made an issue of this.

 

Would I do it? Probably not at a scout camp, But havent we all been alone in our house with our sons and a group of thier friends?

 

Have you ever taken your son Camping with some of his friends, I know I have. Some were scouts in troop, others were just friends. Was I the only adult? Some of the time yes.

 

Like I said some may see this as a big issue, but without more info, I have to withhold judgement.