How Important Is Failure?

[johndaigler]

Good example, Eamonn. I agree that wouldn't be hazing at all - just seeing and using a "teachable moment". I also agree that we see most failures coming -- unfortunately, those failures usually belong to others. It would be nice to see our own coming that clearly!

 

I guess I was imagining in a harsher direction. Sctldr (and I know this is not at all what you were saying, sctldr. I just took it another step or 6.)made me think with "Nowadays more importance is placed on self-esteem than on learning to be prepared for and how to handle life's hard knocks." I was imaging some curmudeonly SM teaching a hard knocks real world lesson to some Scout. I think I could take it far enough down that imaginary road that the SM's behavior becomes inappropriate, but it really wouldn't serve any purpose in this thread.

 

jd

[Eamonn]

I do agree that we never set up a Scout or a patrol to fail.

This puts the poor old Scoutmaster in a strange place. He trains the patrol leaders, he supports the patrol leaders. He knows that he along with the other adults are the "Safety Net". However he knows that Scouts learn to lead by leading. He knows that training is top of his list when it comes to Patrol Leaders and SPL's. He knows that the hard parts are the trust them and letting them lead. Too much support is interference. No support is wrong.

Many, many years back when I was a Patrol leader. We went away for the weekend and forgot to bring the food. We had left on a Friday night and as luck would have it we were not that far from home. I did feel very silly and maybe a little ashamed of myself. I called my Dad and he did bring the food out to us.

The next day one of the ASM's said that he knew that we hadn't put our food on the van. I thought then and think today that he was a twit. If he had seen that the food wasn't there he should have said something. Sure I learned a good lesson, but I think that the price was too high.

I have as a SM seen Scouts make camp gadgets, with poor lashings. I knew that they wouldn't hold up to use. I seen my choices as leave it as is till it fell down or ask the patrol leader if he thought the lashings were good enough. I admit to asking the Patrol Leader. Nine times out of ten, the Patrol Leader would smile at me and tell me that everything was fine and then when he thought that I wasn't looking he would get the lashings redone. I being a good sport would let it pass.

Eamonn

[whitewater]

Eamonn,

 

I don't know anything about that SM that let you forget the food, so I can't say if he was a twit or not, but if the campout was close to home as you said I might have been tempted to do the same. I doubt I would have if the campout was a 6 hour drive.

 

Since the consequences of forgeting the food were a little greater, perhaps the lesson learned sunk in a little more. Did you ever forget the food again? I wonder if the missing food had been discovered earlier with little or no consequences, if the food would have been forgotten again?

[Hunt]

Another reason to hesitate to step in is that you might be wrong about what you think you know. Kids will sometimes surprise you and make something work that you were sure would fail. Obviously, that doesn't apply to something like forgetting the food, but it might apply to a boy-planned activity that you think will fail.

[Eagledad]

Another Beautiful Oklahoma Day all

 

>>If he had seen that the food wasn't there he should have said something. Sure I learned a good lesson, but I think that the price was too high.

[johndaigler]

Great post, Twit, er, I mean, EagleDad,

 

Perhaps, what makes the difference between teaching lessons and hazing(I really don't like that word - it sounds like college and frat boys - in this case, by hazing I mean the adults taking their own behavior so far that it becomes questionable or downright inappropriate) is a matter of distance down the failure road you allow boys to travel.

 

If Eamonn's SM didn't have a well-thought-out last resort solution, then perhaps "Twit" is appropriate. You spoke (

[timberscout]

Good Day all.

First let me put in my two cents on the question that started the thread, by asking another question. Is it a failure or a setback? I tend to believe and teach the boys that the only way to fail is to give up and quit.

 

I must also tell a short story that is one of my favorite Memories is of a group of Webelos that I took to the Pool for the swimming belt loop and pin. I had two boys that on there applications were listed as non swimming, and more then once during working with them I heard "I can't" stated by one or both non swimmers. My response to them was man has walked on the moon, you can learn this. It took three more months of the parents taking them to the pool and Three more times of the den leaders going down and running them through the B&P requirments, but they made it and when they did they were so pumped that they went and took the pool swim test to swim in the deep end of the pool and past. Now as the SM for these boys we have an understanding that we do not say I can't.

 

I think that working for something makes it that much better when you earn it. So how importnat is failure, not at all if put in the right context. The important part is learning from your mistakes and try try again.

 

KISKIF

[KoreaScouter]

Let's make sure we're not considering "failure" and "mistake" to be synonymous. The lads will make more mistakes than Carter has liver pills while they're developing their leadership skills. That's not failure. I've always maintained that we measure the success of the program, and the Scouts, by how they turn out as adults, not by whether they missed an activity because they ran late.

 

Ultimately, I think it's all about what kind of priorities we set ourselves, how much of an emphasis we place on winning at all costs, and how we communicate that to the Scouts. Keep a balanced, healthy perspective, and so will they. Meaning, they won't be crushed by setbacks.

 

Case in point: little KS plays football. They're having a dreadful season from a W-L standpoint, only one win with just one game to go. But, he went out so he could play, polish his skills, hang with his buds, and smack fellas without getting in trouble. He's getting all that, so despite their record, the losses don't bother him. BTW, although I help with the team and am on the sidelines every week, I never criticize his performance or yell advice to him -- that's his coaches' jobs to do. On the way home, we'll talk about the game if he wants to, otherwise, it's about our plans for the rest of the weekend. There are boys on his team who are distraught after a loss. Their dads (and some moms) are screaming at them from the sidelines the whole bloody game. Coincidence? I think not.

 

I've said this before: in military working dog circles, we have a saying... "What goes down the leash comes up the leash". Who remembers that old Harry Chapin song, "The Cat's in the Cradle"?

 

KS

 

 

[Lynda J]

If we reward a scout for not meeting the standards then we as leaders have failed him.

We have seen this in school. Pass the kid even though he can't read. Then suddenly he is out of highschool and can't read.

We learn from our mistakes.

Failing teaches us the value of success.

If we never learn to fail how can we appreciate our sucess?

 

.

[Fuzzy Bear]

We had a great high school football team the year I graduated. It was made up of some very good athletes that received scholarships to several universities. Anybody could see it from a distance even when we were in the seventh grade. We later combined with another Junior High school team in the tenth grade and we knew then that we were to be something very special. By the end of our Senior year, we had several standout players and some that were All-District. We won only 6 of our 10 games that year and we didn't go on to a play-off game. We graduated and went our different ways but to this day I often wonder what happened. To this day my heart is burdened with the loss of the hope of that day.

 

I attribute our failure to materialize on our lack of unity as a team. We were not the victims of hazing, nor the recipients of ugly words for failing. We lost because we failed to learn that a team is of one mind. We had somehow decided to be a group of individuals playing a game together for fun. We received our reward for our goal and a greater lesson of knowledge about ourselves. I will always be disappointed about what I believed should have been because I knew what we really were or hoped we were.

 

That failure has been a hallmark or an incentive for me to go on to do many things as an individual. When I have failed, I understood what it takes to succeed. I understand about persistence and a good work ethic and having focus. I also know that my abilities and my interest must coincide to maintain the daily regimen to complete the total task that I have set before me.

 

Failure and hazing could happen at the same time but they are two different behaviors and should not be confused with each other. Both affect our emotions but in two separate ways. One demeans our efforts and the other means for us to learn what efforts are necessary to go forward to reach a goal. Scouting is an excellent program for a person to learn by failure and success. Some things will be easy and others difficult. The overall goals of character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness are worthy aims for each of us but can only be obtained by sustaining a lengthy learning experience which is rarely accomplished without the benefit of personal hardship.

 

FB