How Important Is Failure?

[Eamonn]

We have two dogs, both are pets.

Some years back I went away for the weekend and Her That Must Be Obeyed, said that she heard someone trying to break in. She gave me three choices: Don't go away. Buy me a gun, or get me a guard dog. I opted for the dog and a security system. Joe the English Setter looked "Frisky" or at least that what Her That Must Be Obeyed, said. He is a totally useless guard dog. He doesn't bark, he sits and wags and hopes that everyone is as kind as the FedEx man, who has a pocket full of dog biscuits.

When Her That Must Be Obeyed complains about the "Big Brave Guard Dog" I tell her to do it not so loud, as she will put his id out and disturb his karma.

Lord knows that when dealing with Lads of Scout age, I am 200% against any form of hazing.I hope that I have never ever set a boy or a patrol up in order that he or they will fail.

I do however feel that there are times when boys fail and Patrols fail. While I sure as heck do not want to put his id out or cause unrepairable harm to his karma. There are times when he will fail. If we just sign off whatever the requirement was because he has tried and not met the requirement we are wrong.

Take Second class swimming, the boy jumps in does try but fails to meet the requirements. Some kind hearted person thinks that it is unkind to fail him "After all he has tried, he has done his best." What happens when he goes to do the First Class swimming requirement?

What about the patrol that is late for everything because they are not working as a team and miss out on doing an activity because they are still cooking when all the other patrols have cooked, cleaned up and are gone?

Eamonn.

[OldGreyEagle]

If you've never known failure, how will you know when you succeed?

[acco40]

The biggest complaint that I have is about parents who do not allow their offspring to fail. It is far better to learn about failure in a controlled environment such as Scouting and learn how to deal with it at an early age than to learn about failure for the first time while away at school or at ones first "real" job.

 

 

[FScouter]

No one ever achieved greatness without "failing" a few times. Failure is not the end of the line.

 

That the goal was not achieved means the obstacles have not yet been overcome. The boy can't swim 25 yards? He struggled and made it 15 yards. Great! That's a great accomplishment since he first jumped into the deep end and sank like a stone. Now let's practice some more and try again. 20 yards! Great! And again and again and 25 yards is completed and the goal attained and the requirement signed off. A hearty pat on the back and "Good job man!" and he grins from ear to ear.

[johndaigler]

Failure is as ubiquitous as Quarter Pounders with Cheese!! There's no escape!!!! It's true we need to actively teach about Failure and dealing with it, overcoming it and using it as a Learning opportunity.

 

It's amazing that we all have to live with it - from a very young age and ao little time is spent on Teaching and Learning about it. It's similar to the amount of time we spend teaching kids how to behave when they're in "the spotlight" and so little time on their behavior when they're in "the audience" -- yet we're all much more likely to be in the audience than in the spotlight!

 

jd

 

"Only those willing to go too far will learn how far they can go." I think this is a Truth -- and if it is, we sure better prepare kids for all those "wonderful" results of going "too far"!!

 

 

[scoutldr]

There is no "try". There is either "do" or "do not".

 

"Do your best" is for Cub Scouts.

[EagleInKY]

Failure is a critical component in the growing process. We learn from our failures. When we teach skills, we often see failure initially, and turn that into success.

 

One of the most difficult concepts for parents in Boy Scouts is to accept failure. Some troop meetings will not be run well, some will go long, some campouts will not don't go according to the agenda, some meals get burned, etc. But we take these experiences, evaluate them, and learn from them. That's the only way they'll learn what works and what does not.

 

"Do your best" is a fundamental concept in scouting. But, it is not the Boy Scout motto. I believe there's a reason for that. Scouts are not only supposed to do their best, but they are to learn how to be successful. They succeed through preparation, training, leadership, and skills.

[acco40]

One of the most universal "truths" about failure is witnessed at a Cub Scouts first Pinewood Derby. The boys are all real proud of their (dads?) derby car and fully expect to come in first place. WHne they witness, in stunning reality, their car NOT coming down the track in first place many are crushed. It is in a way sad to witness. However, one way to look at it is that the boys are learning how to cope with failure. Some handle it gracefully. Some, break down and cry and proclaim, "This is stupid! I'm never going to do this again.!" They will need to experience failure again and possibly many more times before they get it.

 

How important is failure? VERY!

[OldGreyEagle]

Was that Yoda or Mr Miyagi, I get them confused

 

[Eamonn]

Yoda was a very old mouse.

So it must be Mr. Miyagi.

Still this makes me wonder if failure happens when you don't have the force with you?

Still back to the thread.

Do you agree that failing a Lad who has not met the requirements is not in any way hazing?

Eamonn

[OldGreyEagle]

Requirements are just that, stuff that needs to happen before something else can happen. At the Olympics, the requirement for winning a Gold Medal is to come in first place, those not receiving Gold medals werent victims of Hazing, they just didnt meet the required criteria.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[scoutldr]

When I was in school, the teachers' favorite line was "I didn't fail you...you got the grade you earned."

 

Likewise, Scouters do not "fail" Scouts. We simply verify when the scout has completed the BSA-prescribed requirements. We don't make the requirements, we just keep track of their completion.

 

Nowadays more importance is placed on self-esteem than on learning to be prepared for and how to handle life's hard knocks. As an employer, I don't particularly want someone who has never known failure...because their version of success doesn't count...mine does. Too much self-esteem is not a desirable quality.

[johndaigler]

I don't think allowing a Scout to fail is hazing. Of course, we ought to do what we can to be sure the Scout is set up to succeed, but that's a no-brainer - and, of course, the Cub standard is such that failure isn't an option. I guess sometimes we give Cubs an Incomplete, but their best effort is never considered sub-standard.

 

I wonder if it's hazing (or any other negative term) if you see the failure coming, can prevent it you want to, and let it happen, in order to "teach the Scout a lesson"????

 

sctldr, you had me chuckling with, "their version of success doesn't count...mine does. Too much self-esteem is not a desirable quality." . . . Not very PC!!!! Very clear, very true, and very commonly misunderstood!!!! Just, . . . not very PC!!!!! well played!

 

 

jd

 

[dsteele]

Refusing to sign off on a requirement that has not been met is not hazing.

 

Saying, "Nah, nah, nah, nah-nah naaaah" while refusing is hazing.

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

Unc.

[EagleInKY]

I wonder if it's hazing (or any other negative term) if you see the failure coming, can prevent it you want to, and let it happen, in order to "teach the Scout a lesson"????

 

Not at all. In fact, don't we see most failures coming? We have to sit back and let it happen (assuming we're not talking a safety issue here).

 

I've told this story before, so forgive me. But it's a good example of this. Our boys complained that we always had too much to do on campouts, and not enough time for play. They wanted a campout where they just "hung out". The ASMs and I knew this was a bad idea, but we let them do it. What do you think happened? By Saturday afternoon it was "hey Mr. J, what are we going to do next? We're bored!".

 

I told them I had nothing planned. But their patrol leaders could probably come up with a game or two, take them on a hike, etc. They managed to have a good time, but they probably won't do that again.

 

I knew this would happen. They did not have the funnest of campouts. Could I have stopped it? Sure, but what would they have learned. Allowing mistakes to happen in a controlled environment is part of what Scouts is about.