I hate to see a good kid turn....

[Eamonn]

Two Scouts from troops in the District that I serve have been caught stealing at Summer Camp.

While I don't know them that well I do know them.Both were / are signed up to attend the Jamboree. The Scout Exec. has been on vacation and I don't know what action he might want to take. I also don't know what action the chartered organizations might want to take.

One Lad I only know to see. The other is a real nice kid. A cheerful, cocky Lad. In fact I was kinda hoping hat he would get elected to be the SPL for the Jamboree. He took JLTC last year, he seemed to a natural leader.

I will have little or no say in what happens to these Lads. I will of course abide by whatever the Scout Exec. And the Chartering Organizations decide.

Still I can't help feeling mad and upset that these guys have let themselves down. It really does pee me off. How the heck could they be so dumb? I feel sure that they will be asked to leave Scouting, by the Scout Exec. I am in two minds if this is the right thing to do.

Man oh man does it upset me when a good kid turns around and does something this .....

GRR!!

Eamonn.

[LPC_Thumper]

Wow Eamonn that's too bad. I too am upset when kids are kids. But look at the good side. These guys have stepped up and tried to correct a mistake. I also think that kids need to learn that their actions have results. So many don't get that concept. This can also make it no fun.

 

Hang in there, these lads will pull through. I'd be surprised if the SE tells them to hit the road. They may not be going to Jambo, they might not be heading on any big trips for a while, but they should have the right to make things OK with all involved (through restitution of property, and revocation of some of their abilities). In the long run these guys can rise above their blunders and make something better happen.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

[JimmyD]

I doubt they would be kicked out of scouts. Some punishment will be administered by someone. Maybe if they apologized it would clear things up?

[SR540Beaver]

Eamonn,

 

I certainly understand your dismay. I'd feel the same way if it happened in my neck of the woods. Obviously, I don't know the boys involved; so I can't speak to their environment. I think one thing to keep in perspective is that even though we want to hold Scouts to a higher standard, they are after all their own person. We as leaders have this vision of Norman Rockwell Scouts in our mind and want to turn "our" boys into that. We want to make a difference. I think in the long term we do. Sometimes it takes someone many years before the lesson sinks in. Everything I know about customer service came from the manager of the grocery store I worked in as a kid. At the time, I thought he was dorky the way he'd run to open the door for a customer. I didn't like it when he would preach to us about how the customer was king. Thirty years later, I realize he was right and I act just like him. We have to keep in mind that Boy Scouts are just boys. We have them an hour and half each week and one weekend a month to make an influence on them. The time they spend at home and with peers far outweighs the time we have with them. We have a kid who was in our Pack and who is now in our Troop who has a foul mouth. Why? Because his Dad could make a sailor blush with the words he uses at home. It is doubtful that we can break this boy of using bad language. All we can do is attempt to control it within our scouting environment. I guess the bottom line that I'm trying o get across is that these boys are going to do dumb stuff growing up just like we did. They are going to act out based more on what they see at home than what they see in scouting. Hopefully, as they mature, they will see the difference and chose the better example from scouting over the bad example of a bad parent or peers. I've seen more than one scaliwag grow into a good, mature, responsible adult. But it took a while to get there. Just because a kid is from a good family, in scouting or active in church does not mean he won't make a mess of things at some point. That isn't an excuse. There needs to be some sort of consequence that makes him rethink why he would do such a think and hopefully chose never to do it again. Hopefully the consequence won't be getting thrown out of scouting. He still needs that positive influence.

[hotdesk]

I strongly dislike when people turn to expelling kids from school or clubs. We as a society tend to use this punishment too often and need to find another way. Instead of this final and end all punishment being common we need to search for something a little bit more meaningful.

 

Community Service and Character building need to be used as an alternative. We need to allow creative people to handle punishments. Kids will be kids and the only way to change their behavior is by teaching them that something is wrong. Simply kicking a kid out of something that is suppose to be doing them good is not an answer.

 

Scouting is suppose to teach kids how to become quality adults and good leaders. When the program fails we need to look and see if it is the fault of the kids or the fault of the leadership that we put in charge. Do they understand the program and are they executing the program correctly? All involved need to be looked at.

[scoutldr]

I think at the very least, they should be made to relinquish their Jambo slot and let two of the alternates go. Part of our job is to teach kids that there are natural consequences to bad decisions. Maybe next time, they'll make an "ethical decision."

[packsaddle]

I've seen similar things. It is better to make those mistakes and address the problems as a juvenile than as an adult. Actually, sometimes it is a really good lesson that nails it down permanently. Depending on the specific infraction, but regardless of venue, we always get the parents involved asap. We inform the boys of this fact immediately after getting caught or whatever. The suspense is terrible and it usually makes them think hard.

I agree with you hotdesk. With parental approval, I took one boy who swiped some candy, after he confessed, to the store with all the candy he had, including the loot. The store owner and the boy then determined how much had been stolen and the owner explained how he feeds his family. Then I paid for all of it, everything. When I later made a gift of it to the boy, at my insistence he took it reluctantly. He never ate it, and in fact, years later, he still has it. I suppose it was my twisted version of the priest who reminded Jean Valjean that he forgot the candlesticks (or however that story went).

[Eamonn]

I agree with those who are for giving these Scouts another chance.

As one who has served in a troop that didn't serve the social elite. I have had to take a group of Scouts back to town after a shoplifting spree. I have been a character witness in juvenile court more times then I want to count.

What I forgot to mention in my posting that both of these Lads were on Camp Staff. While I know that I shouldn't try and guess what the Scout Exec, Will do. He is a nice enough chap but does seem to always go for the easy way out.

It seems that these Lads stole: Cash, knives and Cd's. When they were caught they were fired from the Camp Staff and their parents were called to come and fetch them.

I might try talking to the Scout Exec. He is for ever telling me that it is "My District." (Nice Chap, but he has a lot to learn - I will have to talk to his Wood Badge ticket counselor!!) He might let me "Have a go at them"

If so I will try and meet with them and their parents. Of course after being fired from camp they might feel to ashamed to want to come back.

Both these Lads are from good families and a really good troop.

I have no idea what I would do if my son had done something like this. The good Lord knows that I love the heck out of him, as I'm sure the parents of these Lads love them. There does have to be some consequence for doing this sort of thing. I feel that they must be feeling bad about everything and that ride home with their parents couldn't have been easy for the boys or the parents.

I am just so upset. I am having such a hard time coming to grips that they could do something this out and out stupid. I feel sad for them and sad for their parents.

I really do hope that there is some way or that something can be done to keep them in Scouting.

Eamonn.

[hotdesk]

You know I completely still agree with what I said eariler, but camp staff??? These guys are suppose to be at the top of their game. They are suppose to be the type of scouts who are willing to live up to the Scout Law and do their best to set an example. A lot is expected from them, but these people are suppose to be the ones that can live up to it.

 

So since they are on camp staff, the punishment needs to be harsher than the punishment would be for a scout who isn't on camp staff. That is the only way they will learn that what the did was wrong.

 

However, like I said eariler they should not be kicked out of scouts. Come up with a clever solution.

[JimmyD]

Wow thats a lot me serious then I orginally thought it was. They were fired, parents probably aren't too happy. That might be more then enough punishment. They may not want to go to Jamboree with the council troop. I'm sure others from the camp staff are gonig and will know what they did. How old are they?

 

Let us know if the SE does anything else.

 

[buffalo2]

Maybe it's just me but I'd like to think that the SE has bigger fish to fry... Sounds like an immediate and appropriate punishment was applied by the Camp Director, and I'm wondering if we should just consider moving on. At the same time, I'd have to agree that these Scouts have proven that they're not worthy of representing their Council at the Jamboree?

[boleta]

Another possibility is that these young men will now quit scouting by their own choice. Sometimes, an act like this, where they clearly know they are violating most parts of the Scout Oath and Law is just the final act of saying "I'm through with Scouting". I really don't know if this is good or bad. Sometimes the kid that needs the program the most is the one that leaves.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Let me see... C.D's at 19.95 each, knives at 25.50 each, cash at $200.00 plus. It looks strangely like a felony charge.

 

What rank are these "lads", most likely Eagle Scout or close.

 

They both were Camp Staff.

 

What age are the lads? They are most likely 17.

 

They both came from good homes, meaning, most likely they could afford to buy the stuff they stole, so they simply were having "fun". In other words, they didn't steal for a reason that any of us could find to be justifiable.

 

Do they have a criminal record? Well, no and it should be taken into consideration at their trial, which wont happen because these are good Scouts.

 

These young men most likely did not "step up" and confess to their crime. It sounds like they were found out. Most likely they told (i.e., bragged) to someone that told someone. That is not what I call stepping UP.

 

What should we do to balance such a crime of "fun" and who was it against?

Who was hurt? Nobody was physically injured. So, we don't want to take physical punishment out on "the lads". Could they replace the items they stole? Sure, so that would not hurt too much either.

 

The idea of who was hurt keeps coming to my mind. It has to be mental hurt. It was hurt against the Camp, against the Scouts and Scouters in the Camp, against people that knew them and trusted them, people like their family, friends, and Eamonn. It was a crime against their Scoutmaster, the Oath, against the Law of Scouting. It was a crime with an object for its "fun". It was Scouting.

 

I am not sure that these "lads" really believe in Scouting or if I could believe anything they would tell me in the immediate future. Nonetheless, I would like to hear from each one, individually, what they did (motivation and direction of their fun). I would want to know what punishment they now expect.

 

Should they be kicked out of Scouting? Well, nobody in this forum wants to do this, so let's consider an alternative. What about a suspension of a year from Scouting? If they are Eagle scouts what about revocation of their badges? If they are not Eagle Scouts, then this mess should be considered at their BOR.

 

I can't help thinking that these young "lads" really think that Scouting is nothing more than a joke. That doesn't make me mad, it makes me sad. I feel sadness for them and for those people that know them and looked to them as an example of good Scouts. Fun like that doesn't make me laugh or look the other way. I hope that others feel the same.

 

FB

 

[packsaddle]

I tend to agree with Fuzzy Bear. Stealing candy at age 14 is one thing. This is quite another, and I would say they are off lightly. Charges should have been brought against the boys. The circumstances are irrelevant, there is no circumstance that justifies such a betrayal. The court has mechanisms to address this, one of which is pre-trial intervention. I've dealt with this before and it works well with youth who just need the incentive it provides. If they have no previous record, the experience of feeling some adult heat would do them some good. It might be the last second chance they ever get but it also might make them use their brains for a change.

Edited part:

Fuzzy, I'm not sure revoking a rank is worth the effort. If they truly valued it they probably wouldn't have done the deed (as you implied), if they didn't then taking it away is a hollow punishment. I would let them keep their rank, in the certain knowledge that they dishonored it and that the world knows it. That might have provide a more lasting reminder - that may cause them to be more thoughtful in the rest of their lives.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Fuzzy Bear]

PS,

A few years ago I dealt with two different cases of Eagle Scouts stealing from others. One ripped off the SM when he went on vacation. He knew the SM was leaving, so off he went to party and wreak havoc, costing about $10,000 in damage. The other ripped off leaders at a Camporee while everyone was at the campfire. I knew both boys which were from different troops. As DC, I was not sure what to do. The first one was court appointed to go to work and pay everything back. The second one had his Grand Dad help him off and was court appointed to go into the Army (*later he was Dishonorably Discharged for similar behavior). This is the kind of thing that takes outside help because of the personal anger that disconnects people from their ability to make good decisions about punishment.

 

In the cases I mentioned, both boys had crossed a line into criminal behavior. The court acted to try to get a balanced initial recompense but Scouting should have done something also. It was not just a random act by somebody outside the circle. Both acts were done by Scouts that had been fully trained and that were trusted by Scouts and Scouters. Taking away their badges is a symbolic gesture but one that puts a notch deep enough to last a lifetime.

 

FB