BOR problem (update from prior posts)

[Fuzzy Bear]

GKE,

 

Since you involved us, I would like to ask you to share some of the details of the letter. I am interested to note their response.

 

The appeals process is used in most organizations to give a fair hearing to a situation. Many are threatened to use it because it is generally felt that the adversarial nature means that it disconnects the individual from the structure. The intent is to update, upgrade or enhance the existing approach of one or both parties involved. It does cause a person to feel some guilt/shame when they become the offending party and are found to be wrong. It does not have to cause a split. Everyone must keep in mind that being wrong is sometimes human. It is not uncommon to misunderstand or come to assume a personal interpretation of some of the many rules in Scouting.

 

Forgiveness and a new approach gives us an opportunity to start over.

 

FB

 

[JimmyD]

Just transfer to another troop. All this BS your going through to me isn't worth it.

[evmori]

I too would like some more detail of the letter!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[goodkidsmom]

ok, then a summary of the letter (with my comments in parents)

 

Before BOR the committee members talked about SM not recommending my son. (Sounds like they started out biased.) Decided to base advancement on his responses (why not on him being signed off for the requirements?)

 

My son didn't remember details about recent participation. (memory is not a requirement, participation has been signed off)

 

My son gave an inappropriate answer (unfortunately he cracked a joke that was not well received)

 

They didn't like his answers to scout spirit questions, but didn't give detail. (he's already been signed off for scout spirit)

 

participate more (he has very high participation and has been signed off)

 

criticized his leadership (has been active in positions most of the year and was signed off for that by SM)

 

try new things (he is, but that's not related to what he's already done for rank), enjoy scouting (how can he in this environment?)

 

That's the gist of it. We'll try one more time to discuss this with CC before the appeal is heard. My son's emotional state can't take another BOR or the delay.

 

I'm in agreement with everyone who says to change troops - but he doesn't want to, so we'll have to see how that plays out. I don't want him to drop out entirely, but we can't leave him in an emotionally abusive situation.

 

GKM

 

[Grumpy]

So I jumped into this discussion halfway through, thought the Mom was just being a Mom and that maybe we needed to hear the other point of view.

 

Then I went back to the beginning post and read it from the start. Get away from that SM while you can. Why doesn't anyone on the committee do something about it? It's great that he is a gung-ho scouter, but he can't change the rules of the game, when it's not his game. And he can't arbitrarily add a 13 point (assertive) to the Scout Law.

 

The question that begs to be answered is "Why would he do this?" I was a SM and I wanted to see my scouts advance, those who earned it, of course. I would never think of not allowing a boy to make Life just because he was quiet and unassuming.

 

Run as fast as you can to another troop. Just my humblem opinion.

[goodkidsmom]

Hi Grumpy,

You're right, why has been unanswered through all this. I have some possible answers, likely it's a combination of these.

 

1) He's trying to do the best for the boy, wants him to be more assertive, more mature, more enthusiastic, and so forth, and thinks the way to do that is to not recommend him for advancement.

 

2) He's ticked b/c we (mostly Mom being a Mom) have jumped in to the rescue when the boy has had trouble with the scout bully and not spoken up. Combine that with #1, he wants the boy to speak up for himself and Mom to back away.

 

3) He's ticked b/c when the boy couldn't go to the campout when he was ill, SM had to fill in teaching the skill the boy had been assigned to teach and thus keeps telling the boy he's not trustworthy. He wants to see a resumption of the active participation that was the case up till the last few months and thinks holding off on advancement is the way to do it.

 

4) He's ticked b/c we made waves, when Scout Bully continued to cause problems, we kept complaining, he kept warning SB, and finally he kicked SB out - but then SB's Mom fought to keep her son in and the Committee agreed, going against SM. So SM stuck his neck out b/c we rocked the boat, and then SM was shot down.

 

5) He doesn't like me b/c I challenge him.

 

6) He's an immature bully who thinks his way is the only way and doesn't respect those with other interests and personalities.

 

As I said above, it's likely a combination of all of the above.

 

GKM

 

 

[FScouter]

I'm glad you've decided to pursue the formal appeal. Only in this way is there any hope to get the SM and committee back on track. Running away to another troop may be the easy thing to do, but does nothing to correct the situation with the adult leadership. You're doing what is best for the youth, both current and future members.

[red feather]

First reaction is 'Run Away, Run Away'. But on further thinking this is a great chance for your son to possibly see that the system can work for him.

 

That said, look around for other troops that are less combative and less full of 'I'm in charge' and let your son continue to enjoy the benefits of scouting without all the other 'stuff'. Have that as a hold card and use it if needed.

 

Very sorry that you and yours are going through this and hope that all goes well.

 

yis

[boleta]

Remember,

My 15 year old son got his Gold Eagle Palm by a unanimous vote at the Council Advancement Committee on appeal. The SM added the requirement- show leadership ability "in the troop by holding a position of responsibility" and refused to consider outside activities in addition to leadership in the troop. He attended two BOR's in the troop and an appeal to the Troop Committee Appeal Board (denied at both). After getting the Gold Palm, he resigned from the Troop and is now a Venturer. But he learned the importance of standing up for himself and what was right.

 

He received a letter of apology from the Troop Committee but this was not signed by the Scoutmaster, Committee Chairman or COR who were all involved in the denial. I still don't think they learned anything from the experience.

[goodkidsmom]

Boleta, Yes, I do remember your posts about your son's situation. Your posts have inspired me to continue with this. I can't imagine them denying a palm, since the boy was already an Eagle and the palm requiremens are basically time+badges, aren't they?

 

I believe we have a strong case and will prevail at the appeal, unless there's something going on that I'm not aware of.

 

But FScouter, I don't see how the appeal to the Council Advancement Committee is going to influence the leadership issue. Boleta's son's situation shows that it won't necessarily. DE says SM problems have to be taken up with the Chartered Organization Rep. I not clear on the chain of command, but if BSA/Council/District isn't(aren't?) going to deal with SM adding requirements, yelling at a kid, etc, who will?

 

RedFeather, yes, we're definitely looking at other troops, and even if my son wants to try to stay in this one, we'll have the option.

 

Meanwhile, all this is really doing a job on my son's anxiety level, so I hope it'll be resolved soon.

 

GKM

[Eagle1984]

GKM,

 

 

This may be a late post, but I wanted to find out if anything was done about your son's advancement. If you are having a problem witht he SM and maybe the committee, you should let the Charter Rep know what is going on before you go to district or council level. 9 times out of 10 the issue can be resolved in house before bringing in the "BIG" guns of the district or council. If nothing has happened your next step should have been to the District Advancement Chair and his/her committee. This is where they are able to hold a district board of review with district staff and 1 member of the committee that is not bias, but knows of the situation involving your son. Let me know what happens.

 

 

 

Eagle1984

[goodkidsmom]

No, he hasn't been advanced yet. I have not gone to the chartered org rep b/c it didn't seem like a useful path - he's a relatively new minister, who I don't think has much knowledge of the troop or BSA. I could be wrong there, but the one-two times he was brought in when there were problems with troop bully he didn't seem particularly informed or useful.

 

Plus, the problems here were whether or not BSA policy was being followed - i.e. SM coming up with new requirements - Assertiveness, Pass SM Conf. This is why I contacted the District.

 

We could not go to District Advancement Chair because he is also our Troop Committee Chair. The District Executive refered me to the District Chair. We tried to resolve it in-house with the CC, but when that didn't work the District Exec and District Chair brought in the Council Advancement Chair and the District Commissioner.

 

GKM

[evmori]

All the reasons you listed as to why the BOR wouldn't advance your son could be valid if the requirements in the book were "rubber stamped". But it doesn't sound like they were. Has any other Scout had this problem?

 

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[goodkidsmom]

At least one other scout - one seemed like Eagle material - dropped out because of one hassle after another with the SM. There were requirements that were added, existing requirements that were interpreted as being more than the book said, etc. SM frequently makes crude/off-color remarks, cracks inappropriate jokes, loses his temper and yells at the boys, swears....that boy's parents finally had enough and removed him from the troop. He also was involved with sports and other activities, and Scouts was no fun and too much of a problem for them to continue.

 

I think there were instances of boys being put off a week or so for their SM or BOR, but I think it's been because of not being in uniform or something like that. Scout Bully was given a tough time about his disruptive behavior during one BOR, but they still signed off, along with warnings to shape up (he didn't and is still there).

 

GKM

[FScouter]

"But FScouter, I don't see how the appeal to the Council Advancement Committee is going to influence the leadership issue."

 

If nothing is said about the current practice of adding requirements and not following the BSA program, then nothing will change. If the incorrect practices are challenged through an appeal, the boy will be advanced. The adult leadership may then decide to stop their incorrect practices, lest they get shot down again at a future appeal. Losing an appeal will not win them any points with the council leadership, nor with your chartered organization.

 

"At least one other scout - one seemed like Eagle material - dropped out because of one hassle after another with the SM."

 

Had the other Scout pursued his issues, perhaps your son would not now be fightiing this battle.

 

Your COR may be new, and may not have a lot of knowledge about the program, but he should absolutely be in the loop. He needs to know that the SM and other adults are not playing the Scouting game by the rules, and that boys are being shortchanged.