SM refusing to sign-off on completed SM Conf - situation worse

[goodkidsmom]

FScouter, ScoutingAgain, EagleinKy, Boleta, Scoutnut, Caveagle, and ScoutlDr - As always, thanks for the responses - Wow!. I appreciate the translation of the "alphabet soup" titles.

 

I've had long phone talks with people from the District and Council, one of whom called CC (also DAC) but didn't get him and left msg. We've also been talking to people from other troops.

 

My husband talked to ASM who is coordinating summer camp and said they are likely not going. This ASM also participated with SM in the SM Conference in question; he said he thought it was ok to hold up a boy they thought might be mature enough, but my husband pointed out that the requirements are very clear. ASM is going to talk to SM about it and also say that IF they go to camp SM shouldn't try to corner my son for for a talk, as concern about this plus such a talk would ruin camp. However, at this point I doubt that they'll go, as SM is not particularly flexible.

 

I can't believe trying to deny an Eagle a Palm. There doesn't seem to be any room for denial there, as long as he's got the time and badges. What a creep. I agree that cutting and running isn't the best approach, but I'm afraid that butting heads against a brick wall isn't something we want to deal with any more. Great advice about signing blue cards.

 

The troop he's probably going to join has 4 Scouts who can't go to camp with the troop and will be going as provisional campers a different week. My husband and son may just go with them, and by then they may be part of the new troop anyway so will have that SM sign the blue cards.

 

Re troop bully and SM - SM is trying to "save" the boy (who DOES have potential - is bright and CAN behave and work hard when he chooses) - says he's like a surrogate father to him - but also cracks down on misbehavior. I save all emails, and have one from SM to me in which SM refered to Bully as the "troop idiot". Bully is at Star rank now, having fulfilled all the requirements - Whether SM overlooked some of "scout spirit" is arguable, but not worth it. Yes, there is some inconsistency there.

 

My son is definitely NOT the first kid to leave the troop because of this SM. SM has said more than once, "I don't care what the book says, this is the way I want it done" (emphasis on the "I") . We will definitely write a letter documenting everything to all of the people mentioned in your posts. I'll probably have to let the letter cool off a bit and edit it when it stops sizzling, but as you can already tell from my long posts, I have no problem writing! And yes, we'll be sure the chartered org knows as well - however, they're kind of clueless and useless.

 

It is ridiculous and sad that a boy and his family have to deal with nonsense like this in Scouting. I am so proud of my son for standing up to the SM! If that's not assertive, I don't know what is, but clearly SM has his own agenda.

 

GKM

[boleta]

Your son can benefit from this whole experience. In his life, he will have to deal with people who are inflexible and difficult to work with. By persisting and going outside the troop, the SM may also benefit if the District or Council authority can show him he has no right to add to the requirements and that when a scout completes the requirement as stated, he will advance.

 

[goodkidsmom]

Yes, Boleta, I agree. Whether he stays with the existing troop or not, and whether SM backs down or not, with the various District and Council people I've contacted, plus the letter I'll write, SM is likely to get a clarification of the rules/policies. (I'd like to say that he WILL HAVE TO follow them, but I guess I'd better not be that definite.)

 

This morning we talked about running from the problem vs holding firm and fighting it - he said he wants to fight, emphasis on the word "fight". He's certainly being assertive now!

 

Interestingly, my son says he really likes his troop and would like to stay in it. That could be a problem given this SM and our relationship with him, but it's my son's decision, and will likely be based on how this plays out.

 

Thanks,

GKM

[boleta]

If he likes this troop, he should stay with it. But it should be up to him. Let him tell the SM that staying is a sign of the assertiveness that the SM wants to see.

 

[goodkidsmom]

Hmmmm - interesting point. I'll pass that along. He likes most of the boys and also the ASMS, but has decided that the SM problems are just too big to stay after all.

 

He's adamant about not having anything more to do with this SM. He realized today that his blue cards for camp are not signed, and he refuses to face SM, even just to ask for the signatures (and in our troop, only SM can sign blue cards). He's also too concerned about SM cornering him and hassling him. He realizes that not going to camp is running from his problem and will likely lead to the current troop giving him more of a hassle at his BOR.

 

He has now decided to just switch troops asap, and if it'll delay rank awhile till SM and ALC get to know him, that's ok with him. He used up his assertiveness quotient when he called SM, and after being kicked in the teeth he doesn't choose to be kicked any more. It's less mature, but on the other hand it'll get him back to the fun parts of Scouting instead of having to deal with SM's treatment of him and the related stress.

 

Kids shouldn't have to deal with this stuff.

[gsmom]

Hello goodkidsmom,

 

I have been following this thread, but not posting since I don't know much about Boy Scout procedures and didn't feel I could give any advice on that topic.

 

I would like to give my 2 cents here, though, on the issue of assertiveness and maturity. One sign of maturity is knowing when your efforts have run their course, and any further effort is futile. Your son did his best, and clearly recognizes the futility of any further "assertiveness" on his part. He has weighed his choices and the consequences of each choice, and has wisely chosen to move on.

 

That is an example of maturity.

 

Best of luck to you and your boy.

 

gsmom

[goodkidsmom]

GSMom - thanks for the post. You make a good point, and I appreciate your insight!

GKM

[Fuzzy Bear]

I can see that you have set your course and are off. You may be correct in all that you are doing. I don't want to disturb a perfectly good answer to an obviously bad situation.

 

I have dealt with SM's over the years and parents and Scouts and myself on various issues. (*Yes, I have been wrong on more than one occasion, ask my wife, she will vouch for me) I have experienced problems where the offending party was not always wrong. Thinking for just a minute about what the SM was saying, 'I want your son to be more assertive'. I understand the definition of that word but what does it mean to the SM?

 

The second point is about the "bully" that threatened your son. What is the task and what is the reason for the task? It appears from a distance that the SM is all wrong.

 

Another problem is that this SM has been doing this job for 20 years. Yes, others will have problems with him. Any person in a position of authority will have detractors. When you begin to look for problems about someone you will find somebody that has been offended by him. Just the same, if you were looking for someone that has experienced something good about him, you would probably find them, likewise.

 

I would want to speak with the SM as a family. I would want a mediator or a good Unit Commissioner. I would want both parties to explain fully their side of the story. Deciding wrongness from one point of view is never a good way to conduct business. Sometimes, people are doing things correctly but misunderstand some rule or they are doing things correctly and the other party misunderstood their actions. This happens even when everything looks from the outside that what is happening is all wrong and it still might be.

 

Writing letters to the authorities to expose an individual as a bad person without some type, any type, of due process is an error in judgment. What happens if you are wrong? You cannot unwrite your anger and the letters. Others will only remember your actions of anger and the person that you have hurt will live with that mark. Actions of anger can have long lasting effects that you may never have intended.

 

I am not taking the side of anyone in this matter. I am asking only for restraint and some type of use of the chain of command that involves people that should be assisting the SM in his job. SM's are only part of the fabric of Scouting, they are not the main design.

 

My last but foremost concern is for your son. I know that this matter is difficult for him to negotiate but it is obvious that he has the aid and support of two helpful parents. With your backing, I know that he will come through this no matter what your decision.

 

Sincerely,

FB

 

[goodkidsmom]

You've raised some good points. We've tried talking several times, but adding another party is a good idea.

 

Re the 20 years - he's only been the troop's SM for about 2 years; before that was an ASM and I don't know what else - he is without par for enthusiasm for hikes and so forth, and really seems to want to do good with the boys, but tact, empathy, etc have been problems all along - not just with us. He flies off the handle frequently, cracks off-color jokes, changes requirements, etc. We (misc. parents) have overlooked this b/c of his enthusiasm and good heart. None of this is directly related to our problem, though, and it is not my intention to expose him as a bad individual (which he is not) or bad SM (which is arguable, but that's not what I'm arguing).

 

What we want to do is get this issue with my son straightened out, and then, if possible, see if things can be smoothed over so my son can continue in this troop if he still wants to. The letter I am working on details dates, emails, meetings, what was signed off, and other facts. I do make sure to point out that I believe SM means well and is trying to help my son improve in an area he feels is important.

 

After reading your post, I will consider documenting the facts as intended for the letter, but use the list to help focus a discussion.

 

Thanks,

GKM

[scouter659]

Ive just started to get up to speed on your story and it all seems crazy to me. I have been involved, through my son, with our Troop for about 15 years and just last December became Scoutmaster. Heres my quick spin. I guess I look at every boy as an individual. They come in all shapes and sizes, not to mention personality quirks. Hmmm, sounds like most adults I know. Arent we there to teach, spread the principles of Scouting and train them to be leaders? We have a boy who has been with us for 3 years who has down syndrome. HE has been a miracle and just by his presence has taught all of us more about the special needs of human beings than we can ever hope to learn. Nobodys perfect and I would hate to criticize a 20 year Scouting veteran but it does appear to me too that he is out of line. Ive read, with great interest so many of the responses and tend to lean with the people who think you should find another Troop. I dont know where you are but I hope theres a healthy dose of alternatives for you to choose from and wish you the best of luck.

[goodkidsmom]

Thanks for your post, Scouter659. It IS a crazy situation. The SM has been our SM for only about 2 years, as far as I know all the rest was as ASM, though with that much experience I'm surprised that he's not more open to different types of boys.

 

My son is going as a provisional camper to a local camp with a small group from a local troop, also provisionals who can't go during their troop's regular week. Then the day after camp my supposedly non-active kid heads off to Europe for 10 days with another Scout group. (Then he'll probably sleep for the next two weeks)

 

Update: I met today with the DE who finally had spoken with the CC who had been away (out of the country, it turns out). DE thinks we can settle my son's advancement problem within the troop once we talk to CC - we have a call in to him. DE recommends that CC accept the first SM conference, the one done with an ASM, because the boy DID have permission from SM to do it with ASM, and shouldn't be penalized (according to DE) for doing it with ASM even if that was against CC's directive. (My son thought it was ok since SM said it was ok.)

 

So, if CC goes along with this, the BOR should be scheduled despite SM's refusal to sign off on SM Conf #2. Then we have to hope that the BOR is straightforward and focuses on whether he completed the requirements so forth, and that they don't throw a curve ball. They shouldn't, but.....???

 

DE also pointed out that it's premature to do anything formal such as an appeal since we hadn't yet discussed the problem with CC, due to CC being away.

 

None of this will help with the friction with the SM and SM's attitude, so leaving still may be the best option.

 

I'll send an update when there is one.

GKM

[goodkidsmom]

My husband and DE have both talked with CC, who has scheduled the BOR for 2 weeks from now. I don't know which SM conf he's considering complete - the one with ASM that CC previously wouldn't accept, or the SM one that SM wouldn't sign off on, but either way, the BOR is scheduled.

 

SM and troop are off at camp. My son has registered for camp later this summer as a provisional camper, with some boys from a troop he might switch to. He says he wants to stay in the present troop, but he's concerned about SM's attitude toward him so we'll see. I'd just as soon he switch, but we'll leave this up to him.

 

Thanks for all the good advice, and I'll let you know of any developments, which I *hope* will be a new rank.

GKM

[scoutldr]

Good luck, goodkidsmom. On behalf of all good Scouters everywhere, I am sorry that you and your son had this experience.

 

Please invite us to his Eagle Court of Honor in six months(virtually, of course!).

 

scoutldr

[goodkidsmom]

Thanks, Scoutldr, and we will - though I think it'll be a few years, not six months. He's got plenty of time and both wants and deserves a few years to just have fun without the pressure.

GKM

[scoutldr]

I've heard that before...from my own two sons...who will forever be Life Scouts. That magic age of 18 sneaks up on them after their brains get clouded with cars, girls and sports!