Who Would You Ask?

[Eamonn]

Ozemu informs us that when the Australian Scout Association were making changes to the uniform they asked people who were not Scouts what they thought.

Phil said that when the English Scout Association were making changes they asked Scouts who were in the program.

Who would you ask? And what input should Adults who are in the Association / Organization have if any?

Eamonn

[fotoscout]

I would think that the kids are a very good place to start, and that a lot of weight should be put on their ideas. However, you still have to look at the programmatic purpose of the uniform, and balance that against what the kids might want.

 

Face it, you could change the uniform a hundred times, but if the kids dont like it, they wont wear it. As an adult, I could care less what it looks like, (provided its not embarrassing to wear). The point is to get the kids to wear the uniform, we wear it to support the kids.

 

I dont know anything about those other Scout Organizations, but it would be a shame to change our uniforms to something that the general public would no longer recognize, which might be just one reason to include non-Scouters in the review process.

 

 

[Bob White]

I would have uniform changes developed, and/or reviewed, by key youth and adult member representatives of the BSA from councils across the country. They would be selected based on their positive attitudes regarding the program, an understanding of the purpose and function of the uniform, and their ability to represent their peers. Pretty much how it is done now.

 

I would do so with the knowledge that no matter what was selected you will never please everyone. You can only make a sincere effort to do the job well. I would keep in mind that there are millions of members in the program, and even if you pleased nine out of ten people you would still have hundreds of thousands whining and complaining.

[fotoscout]

Bob, I find your answer interesting in its exclusivist nature.

 

They would be selected based on their positive attitudes regarding the program, an understanding of the purpose and function of the uniform, and their ability to represent their peers.

 

Youve identified those people who in all likelihood wear the uniform proudly. Those with positive attitudes regarding the program, an understanding of the uniform, AND those that can represent their peers. These three criteria put together certainly dont reflect the vast majority of boys who will not wear the uniform, and possibly not even the vast majority of boys in the program. If you're going to do this type of uniform survey, you certainly dont want to solicit the choir about their thoughts on singing in the choir.

 

The review would have to be done across a much larger base.

 

[Eamonn]

OK fotoscout

Now we know who you wouldn't ask. We are back to the question.

Who Would You Ask?

Eamonn

[Laurie]

Interesting question. There are boys in the troop my son is in that enjoy Scouting, but they just do not like the uniform. They wear it, but not because they are proud of it, rather because they are told to. These are the boys that coming running into a meeting with their shirts in their hands, throwing them on once they arrive, and taking them off as soon as the meeting is over. What I would like to know is this: what would these boys want in a uniform that would make them more inclined to wear it with pride rather than hide it?

 

And I'd add those Bob mentioned. What an interesting poll this could be, taking those proud of the uniform and those wishing to hide it and trying to come up with something workable from that mix!

[fboisseau]

Unfortunately I do not believe you could come up with an Uniform that is identified with Boy Scouts that boys, who do not wear or like to wear current one now, will wear willing. Why? Because the uniform would still be associated with Boy Scouts, it is not the style of the uniform that is the problem it is the myth associated with what the uniform represents is the problem.

[Bob White]

I tried to post this as a spinoff but there is a glitch in the forum program and it would not post, so I am posting it here.

With apologies to Eamonn

BW

 

In a discussion Eamonn started, a curious relationship has been assumed. It seems to be suggested that if a person wears the uniform correctly it is presumed he likes all aspects of the uniform.

 

I am not convinced that is true. Rather, that folks who like and understand scouting are proud to wear the uniform to show that affiliation. No matter what you make the uniform, it will still be a uniform. Whether or not people will wear it correctly or completely has less to do with how they like the design, and far more to do with how they much they like the program and are willing to be associated with it.

 

If you think that everyone prior to the current design wore the correct or complete uniform then you have a flawed memory of scouting history. Many people want to blame the scouts for not wearing the uniform, but it is the adult's role to implement and use the scouting methods, not the scout's.

 

If anything has changed it is the attitude of many adults toward the uniform. Too many adults allow their personal opinion of the design, cost, purpose, and importance of the uniform to impede their ability to deliver the program and support the scouting methods.

 

The scouts and scouters I know who steadfastly wear a complete and correct uniform, do so because they are proud to be a part of the scouting movement. The uniform could be made of sackcloth for all we care.

 

Now some posters might counter "well what if the BSA decided the uniform wold be a sundress and feathered boa" as was similarly suggested some time back by a poster to argue this point. The difference is that, I have enough knowledge of (and confidence in) the BSA to know that such a decision will not happen.

 

Wear the uniform not because you like the uniform, but because you like being a part of scouting, and the uniform is the visible expression of that pride.

 

we return you now to the regularly scheduled thread discussion

[Laurie]

(This was posted the same time as Bob's post and was following fboisseau's post.)

 

That may be true, but the boys I know who like Scouts but not the uniform have said what they don't like. They hate the pants, but interestingly enough, they'll wear any other olive green pant with their uniforms. And yeah, I know, that's not the way the uniform is to be worn, but the color--and therefore the image--is not the problem. The hat--it's just not cool they say, but all these same boys wear baseball caps. The thing they have in common is that most are dark colors with no logo or something subtle. They just plain don't like it. The shirt is ok, but the neckerchief has got to go, they say. So, most don't wear them. They don't like the look or the style of that, preferring the shirt alone to the shirt with a neckerchief. Now, here's the thing: these very same things that the boys don't like aren't worn by the leaders. The leaders were baseball caps, dark usually. The leaders were jeans or khakis. The leaders do not wear a neckerchief or bolo. This is an issue that makes me wonder: is it really the uniform that is the problem, or is the example set? I like the leadership, but I believe an adult example is very powerful and may have influenced the attitude toward uniforms. Oh, and merit badge sashes? Never ever worn except by those working on Eagle, and then only during BOR's and the Eagle COH. I cannot tell you how sad that makes me that they don't want to display these.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[OldGreyEagle]

Good points all around. I would want input from the gung ho scouts, the ones who come to every meeting, uniform clean and pressed and walking straight. The real go getters, it would be hard, nay it would be criminal not to include them in a uniform change. But I would also seek out the scouts who have been second class for 2-3 years and ask them what they would like to see in a boy scout uniform. I would ask everyone, not just the elite. Maybe with such an approach a "uniform revolution/evolution could occur. Lets change the terminology, and have a uniform for Courts of Honor, Parades, etc and call it the "Formal Uniform", I was going to say Dress Uniform, but I htink the military uses that term. Then we could have official "Activity Uniforms" and I dont mean cotton t-shirts with a troop number hand stenciled on the back. Real BDU type pants, Columbia quality outerwear, Shirts, etc.

 

Maybe the BSA takes a different aproach, it signs a 5-10 year agree ment with some apparel company that the Boy Scouts will use that companies products as the activity uniform. For example, lets say it will be the Dickies Company and the Boy Scouts will use a specific color pant and Ventures another color. Now, its not special order, and members can buy that brand and color wherever they wish. The price stays low because its not a special order. The same could be done with outerwear and shirts, anyway, its an idea. The company gets to say the official pants of the Boy Scouts or some such other line. I know it could be crass commercialism, but it could be a new revenue stream. ANyway, its a thought

[Bob White]

Except for the pants Laurie you are pointing to options and not required uniform pieces. What is the problem with only wearing the sash on formal occasions? It is only designed to be worn for formal occasions. They don't have to wear the hat all the time, the neckerchief is optional.

 

They are in the pants maybe for 2 hours one time a week and on rare special occasions. I am not nuts about suits and ties but I wear them when the occasion calls for it. Scout uniforming as a youth helped to teach me that there are times you wear what you wear depending on the appropriateness for the occasion.

 

It depends on what we teach them and how it is taught. When the learner hasn't learned then the teacher hasn't taught.

 

Side bar to OGE's post

 

"But I would also seek out the scouts who have been second class for 2-3 years and ask them what they would like to see in a boy scout uniform."

 

I would be more interested in what they would want to see in a real troop scouting program. Because if they have been Second Class for two or three years then there are bigger problems in that unit then the uniform will solve.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Laurie]

Bob, I stand corrected. I thought the neckerchief and hat were troop decisions that varied from troop to troop. This troop has a neckerchief designed for it, and it requires the baseball style cap. This is what we were told and have in print in the new family guide. Of course, I did omit that part, but if the troop makes a decision like this, isn't it confusing to the boys when only one or two wear a neckerchief or hat?

 

The thing that bothers me about the sash is that it is only worn during Eagle COHs and Eagle BORs by the Eagle Scout/candidate. I did not say this was wrong, but that it made me sad. The boys work so hard. What about all those other COHs for all the other boys? It would seem to be the time to show off what has been earned, but the boys just don't wear them though they do have them.

 

(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[OldGreyEagle]

Bob White, you are correct sir, that is exactly the type of questions I would ask. I would like to know about the feelings of the scouts at the peripheral edges of the program. What do they want? Is it the program or the way the program is being brought to the boys? Maybe a grass roots survey should be done, on subjects ranging from the uniform to advancement to what the boys want to do with the results published nationally. Its not unknown for major industries to survery their clients, maybe we should as well.

[SR540Beaver]

I just attended the IOLS course this weekend. There were 13 participants. Other than the staff on the course, there were only 2 of us who wore a complete uniform. Myself and another gentleman. We wore the complete uniform the whole weekend. Everyone else there was in jeans mostly and a wide variety of shirts. Some had their uniform shirts with them and dug them out for the flag ceremony. Is it any wonder that the boys resist wearing their uniform when the SM or ASM won't even follow that methods? I'm not crazy about the uniform myself, but you will always see me in it from sten to stern. It is about attitude more than style and WE are teaching the boys style over attitude when we ignore wearing the full uniform.

[fotoscout]

Eamonn,

 

Please don't misunderstand. I would include them as well. But I would not limit the survey to that exclusive lot.

 

foto