Trouble with Scouts being "Clean" (of word)

[Gags]

Greetings all.

 

Over the past several months, the choice of language used by my Scouts has quickly deteriorated. The Troop is only 4 boys, all are 14 and in the 9th grade (3 in HS, one in the last year at a Senior Middle School, or whatever they call it).

 

Last months backpacker was the worst. I feel theres a total lack of respect being shown to myself and the ASM (one of the Scouts mothers, no less) during meetings and outings. I understand that boys will be boys, which is why the one parent seems to accept the all too occasional slip-ups. Now I definitely dont live in a glass house (as my wife will attest whenever I watch sports on TV), but I seem to remember doing a pretty good job of watching my mouth around adults when younger. Is this concept foreign to Scouts these days?

 

Ive tried the Scout is Clean talk, even having one of them read the description of it from the handbook during a SM conference where we discussed his Scout Spirit the past few months. I saw the light bulb go off, but it must of tripped the circuit breaker b/c it was lost on him by next week.

 

In addition to the minor swearing (and one or two major episodes), the phrase of choice is any combination of thats stupid, youre an idiot and X is being retarded. The constant reminders of being Courteous and Kind dont sink in either. 3 of the 4 have known each other since Cubs. The ASM chalks some of it up to them just being excited to see each other (since theyre all in different schools). Shes a little blind to the fact that theyre not as close friends as she thinks, but thats another story.

 

Im at wits end. Ive prepared a letter home to the parents, but its already almost a page long (single spaced), and wanted the lists opinion before I sent it out. I dont expect them to be angels, but is it that much to ask that they bite their tongues a little bit more while in Scouts? I wont make them do 15 push-ups for every slip up, as tempting as it is, b/c thats not the message I want to send, and more importantly, I shouldnt HAVE to threaten or use that kind of discipline in a Scouting environment. Its just that the this isnt appropriate for Scouting lectures that seem to work for everybody else is not working in this case. Do I need to just resort to being the evil SM for a few weeks, and hope they dont quit altogether?

 

Before this letter gets too long (well, too late for that), Ill end it here and open the floor for suggestions, criticisms, or offers of free drinks in sympathy.

 

YiS,

 

Frustrated in Washington

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I noticed the same thing with language when I joined the troop my son is in. After a few campouts I started correcting the scouts language with anything from "thats not very scout like" to "you kiss your mother with that mouth?". It was slow, and not all the adults were consistent. But I did establish that you didnt use "bad" language around Mr GreyEagle or you were apt to be corrected.

 

Then I started to issue a challenge before every outing, I challenged the scouts that they could use any word that they had heard me say. I know this is taking a chance, and you need to have your own discipline. But then when I heard a coarse word, I would say, have you ever heard me say that? And they would have to admit they hadnt. I told them to listen to the words I use, and I use a lot. The language has improved, or at least to my ears it has, they may swear like "sailors" OOps sorry Gags, but at least they censor themselves around the adults so I know they are learning whats acceptable and what isnt.

 

In my experience saying "boys will be boys" only leads to worse situations.

[Eagledad]

>>Its just that the this isnt appropriate for Scouting lectures that seem to work for everybody else is not working in this case.

[Fat Old Guy]

There's something in the water that's causing the problem. When we wuz youn'uns we knew that there were things that were not said around adults just as we knew that there were things that we didn't do around adults. I would have died rather than swear in front of an adult, in fact I still won't swear in front of my parents or my parent's friends. I also don't swear in front of most women (my wife's the exception since she curses like a trooper) unless I just dropped an anvil on my foot.

 

Whatever it is that's in the water has taken away these inhibitions from kids today. I don't know if it is society, schools, TV or what.

 

Fortunately, the scouts in my troop keep it clean around the adults.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[EagleInKY]

I've had the same issues. When correcting one Scout, I said "we don't talk like that". He came back, "Well, we do at my house". I simply told him back, "Well, you are in the troop's house, now, and we don't talk that way".

 

We talk about how it's not "Scoutlike" and how it does not follow the Scout Law. I think it's sinking in, at least with some of them. The problem is that they hear it at home, school and TV all too frequently.

[mk9750]

We don't have too many problems with this. Every once in a while, a kid will slip and use a word he knows he shouldn't. When it happens, an adult giving him a look is enough to remind him not to do it again. Hell and damn have become acceptable in our Troop. I'm not particularly on board with that, but it falls into the "where to you want to pick your fights" realm. Most everything else is off limits for boys and adults.

 

If we started having a problem, and couldn't control it with looks, or the "Scout - Like" sentence, I'd suggest to the SPL instituting a "cuss cup". When ever someone hears you swear, pitch in a quarter. Knowing our guys, if they went for this, they'd use the money for extra presents for the veterans at the VA Hospital (we're going tonight, if the weather allows).

 

Mark

[acco40]

Face it, in some households, the boys are allowed to talk as they please. To the boy, that is acceptable behavior. Now some are not allowed to talk that way and are testing limits. I have one father/son pair in our troop that constantly rib each other about their looks, weight, actions, etc. They act as peers, not father/son. That is acceptable in their household and it bothers other adults in the troop. The other boys see the one boy talk to his father (an SA) and feel why not talk to the other SAs and SM that way. What I do is not to lecture but very calmly ask them to repeat themselves and then feign stupidity as if I did not know what they meant. This forces the boys to speak properly and civily to me. Pretty soon they learn that it takes more effort to use bad language around me than it does to use good appropriate language. Around their peers, that is their domain and I stay out of it. Don't preach and realize that not all families have the same value system with respect to speech.

 

I remember when I cam home from college after my first year. Every other word out of my mouth was f this and d that. It was habit (a very poor one mind you) obtained from living with a bunch of lewd and crude 18-20 yr old males. I wasn't really aware of it until my father very calmly and discreetly told me that my language was not appropriate around my mother and ten year old sister. You may say that is a sexist attitude but you can believe that I was very embarrassed and I tried to clean up my act as soon as and as well as I could.

[Gags]

OGE,

 

That's an excellent suggestion regarding using only the words that I use. I'm going to try that during the meeting tonite.

 

EDad,

 

I'm not offended, and the only thing that hurts is the frustration of repeatedly telling them to watch their language, that it doesn't belong in Scouts, etc. etc.

[[Would these scouts behave like this in front of their mother?]]

One of them did on the backpacker. He had gotten out of his sleeping bag (beautiful night, so no tents) to go visit a tree, and I guess was still a little dazed, but suddenly began [complaining]about not being able to find his sleeping bag, and "where the h[eck] is my d[arn] sweater" "someone took my f***ng bag!". Mom was now awake 15 feet away from him, and while in my bag, I hadn't gone to sleep yet, so I decided to see how she handled it. It was really quite comical (from an observers point of view), being that I knew he was sitting on his bag, and the sweater was probably wherever he had strewn it on the ground. I guess Mom chose to ignore the chosen words because he was confused, and used the "it's all right, just look around you" soothing mother voice to get him back in bed. But confused or not, I could wake up from a 3 year coma and still know not to even say "where the hell am I?" if my mother was around!

 

[[but when you start to understand how making the wrong choices leads to bad habits. Well then you voluntarily start to WANT to change.]] Can you clarify this a little for me? What bad habit would result out of using bad language? I'm in agreement, just blanking on good examples to use.

 

[You don't have to be around such behavor, maybe they need that too.] That's an excellent point. It could be a good wake-up call for them to realize that I don't HAVE to be their SM.

 

Mark - I may try the "cuss cup" idea. I'd just be worried that enforcement of that would take up 1/2 the meeting. But I agree with the hell and damn - as much as I don't like to hear it, I need to fight bigger fires first, like other swearing, slapping, and basic levels of respect towards each other.

 

Thanks for all the responses.

 

--Gags

 

[Laurie]

This type of language...

 

Would it be appropriate during a job interview? How might an employer respond to a prospective employee who spoke to him as Gags' Scout spoke to his mother? Would it help or hinder in securing the job?

 

What about in a book report or other type of school project? How would this language effect the grade? Would it help--if so how? Would it hinder--if so how?

 

A girlfriend or sister. How would you feel if someone were to talk to your girlfriend and/or sister this way? My own boys are too young for girlfriends (today at least ), but they have a little sister, and I have noticed they are extremely protective of her. They think about what they do around her, and they carefully watch others around her--more so than in any other setting.

 

How does this language fit in with the Scout Law, Oath, Promise? If it is acceptable elsewhere, ok, we understand that. It is--I doubt any of would argue that there are places where cursing is accepted and considered normal. So, now bring it back to Scouting. I would challenge any boy to try to reconcile his choice of language with Scouting; it would at least get them to think.

 

Now, I had a chance to substitute for a first-grade class. A boy said the "f" word. I asked him to please not use that word again, and he asked why not--his father always said it. I said that was between him and his father, but while in the classroom, all students were expected to try to use only kinder words. What an eye-opener!

 

So, maybe, just maybe, using the types of situations where appearance, language, body language, etc. count would help them to see that they are indeed juddged by their choice of words and that they do matter. This is how my husband and I brought up our children, with the understanding that choices--in language as well as other areas--need to be made in order to shape reputations.

 

Good luck, and please let us know how tonight's meeting goes!

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I have been a Scoutmaster, a Camp Director, a teacher, and a counselor, all working with youth and adults. Many that I have worked with were troubled young people in different, difficult situations. Most knew how to use bad language and how to be disrespectful. I don't allow either for good reason.

 

If a young person persists with bad behavior, then they will have me, their parents, the committee, etc., involved until they are willing to carry the bad behavior behind my back or back to the street. Likewise, if a person changes, then they have me and everyone I can find to be behind them in our activities. A Scout room, a school room, a church, a Scout camp, a place of business cannot build meaningful relationships or good program when disrespect is common.

 

My directness lets them know what to expect. If we agree that the Scout Law is our standard, then we all abide by it. Likewise, if we say that the outdoor program is one of our methods, then we fully engage that along with input from the boy leaders and the other Scouts in choosing where we go and what we do.

 

If they must put up with being made fun of because they change some of their ways, then they will be able to reply that our Scout program makes it worth it. Fuzzy B.

 

[scoutldr]

Girls are just as bad these days. Just go hang out at the local mall and keep your ears open. They hear it on TV constantly, and won't buy a CD unless it has a "Parental Advisory" label on it. Parents don't care. So if we are to make a difference, it's up to us.

 

We tried the "quarter jar" since one of our ASMs is a merchant mariner, and raises "sailor's language" to an art form. He doesn't even realize he's doing it. Now, he just chucks a $20 bill in the jar on Friday night and says "There, that should cover me for the weekend."

[evmori]

We have done what scoutldr does with the cuss jar. The only difference is you can't pre-pay & insults also cost a quarter. We started using this at summer camp three years ago & the amount in the jar has consistently diminished.

 

Ed Mori

A blessed Christmas to all!

1 Peter 4:10

[red feather]

Fuzzy, one word stuck out in your post to me, and that was expect. If we hold our scouts to high expectations they will strive to reach that level.

 

For years I have been the "Enforcer" in the troop that I am with and the scouts have responded to high expectations. Their scout salute is sharp and they have learned pride to be in scout uniform. Not overnight but it will happen.

 

Simple things like seeing a scout sitting on a table during a meeting I will go to the scout and tap the table saying "table" and then tapping a chair say "chair". Somehow they all get the message and I carry it over to the words they use.

 

It is not so much would their mother care to hear those words but that I do not care to hear those words. I know they use them (duh) but I try to raise the expectations bar a bit higher.

 

Best feeling awhile back was to hear... "That's not allowed, don't let Mr. Sisco hear you."

 

true returns

 

yis

[red feather]

ps. when fresh out of Basic Training and visiting my old troop at camp I used the d word during a vicious game of spades. The instant the word left my mouth I felt bad since I had failed the expectations of the troop. A lesson that has stayed with me for over 30 yrs.

 

yis

[mk9750]

I hesitated telling this story in my first post, because it sends the opposite message. But it was very funny, and I can't resist sharing it here. As I said, we don't have much of a problem with bad language in our Troop. We're not perfect, but it is unusual to hear one of the boys let one slip.

 

Our Venture Patrol was at Tinnerman Canoe Base in Canada a few years ago. Their program has each of the crew rotating responsiblities among the boys.

 

One day, a VERY quiet boy in our Troop was the Crew Leader. Now this guy is painfully quiet. Some of the most excrutiating Merit Badge sessions I have ever had were with this kid. He just doesn't like to talk. After their day on the river, the bunch of them sat around talking and stuff. It came time to start diner, but the cook didn't seem to get the hint from the rest of the guys that he should get up and start rattling pans. Very casually, each of the boys tried to remind him it was getting time for dinner, and he better start cooking. the guy just didn't move. The day's Crew Leader did practically nothing, in that he just doesn't like to talk.

 

After about an hour, I gues the Crew Leader lost it. He got up off his rock, walked over to the cook, and yelled, almost loud enough to be heard in Ohio, "Get the f$ off you a&& and cook something, damn it!" As I understand it, everyone almost fell over in shock, then laughter. But it had the desired effect. Dinner was ready in 25 minutes. And no one seems to question this kid anymore.

 

I wasn't there, but my older son was. This story gets told around campfires more than any other story in the Troop.

 

Mark