Requirement - Demonstrate Scout Oath & Law

[Sturgen]

I know someone is going to jump on my back for this so here it goes.

How well do scoutmasters really know the boys, to be blunt, not well at all, you dont see them at school or for the most part outside of scouts, but guess who does, the other boys, leave it up to them, for the ranks of 2nd class and up let the troop discuss in an open meeting with the scout present how he represents scouting, ask him specific questions, in general i have found this takes 2-3 hours for a troop of 30, granted its alot of time but well worth it and it can be split up into a couple of meetings

[Bob White]

I can only hope you do not actually do this, and that if you do another adult makes you stop soon.

[evmori]

Sturgen,

Interesting approach! It seems this would promote Scout Spirit outside Troop functions!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Sturgen]

Sorry Bob, that is the way it works, and in 10 yrs in the troop personally and with the head SM's 30yrs, i have only heard of one case of favortism in this model, which is nothing when you consider this happens twice a year, and in that one case the other adults and i reminded the boys of why we hold these boards of review and held a revote and the issue was solved

[EagleInKY]

Thanks to everyone for giving great feedback on this subject! I've taken it all in and am working with our Committee Chairman on our particular problem. Mark, Mike, KS - all great suggestions. we're going to implement something along the lines of your thoughts. Sturgen - While I agree that the boys are the ones who know the most about how they act in their everyday life, I'm not sure if I'm ready to turn it over to them in the same manner. I probably have the same reservations as Bob. What I currently do, however, is get input from the PLC about boys that are having "issues". It usually comes out there. I've also found that Scouts will allude to issues in the patrol during my SCs with them. When I probe deeper, they'll usually tell what their concerns are.

 

So, what is this Scouter doing next? I'm getting a meeting set up with the Committee Chair and hopefully the COR to meet first with the parents, and then with the boy. I'm telling them that we're holding him back on this until we see some improvement. We've got plenty of documentation on where he's falling short. I'm sure it's going to be a painful, but necessary process. Wish me luck!

 

Thanks again to everyone for the input.

[Fuzzy Bear]

After reading the last message, I must be posting after the horse has ran. So, I will do what I do so well, blow hot air.

 

Enter the Scout Slogan, Do a Good Turn Daily. It is kind of the nougat of Scout Spirit.

 

An old Scout cartoon that is part of my Scout collection shows a young Scout telling a girl that he is going to hit her if she did not let him carry her groceries. He states that he must do a Good Turn Daily and it is her turn to help out. It lightly demonstrates a misunderstanding.

 

The Good Turn is Scouting's "moral imperative" that takes understanding, counseling, training, and examples to learn. Since morals are not taught in school and generally not on TV, then it is left up to the church to carry that burden during the few hour(s) that they have the young person and if they can gain his/her attention by talk. The Scout's family may or may not be able to deal with morals effectively.

 

So, it may be that the experience the Scout has in the troop setting is one of the few places to learn these lessons. Changing directions is never easy but the Scouting program is full of opportunities. I want to suggest three ways that I have found to be effective:

 

1. The Scoutmaster's Minute. When done well, you can gain attention and deliver a message in the amount of time a young person will accord such things, a minute. (Note: A few extra seconds may be given to a leader out of kindness. Make sure to have one or two Minutes intermittently about kindness. It will give you the upper hand.)

 

2. Periodically speak about Good Turns that you have knowledge of and you have the Scout's permission to share. Use of the Scout(er's) name is questionable. Some feel that it cancels the Good Turn when credit is given. Giving credit may also instill the wrong kind of pride and/or a one sided view of the person, such as guilt by association. We are not always guilty of an act based on one example.

 

3. Counseling Scouts is a full time job for a SM. Of course, this type of counseling is based on the Scouting ideals. If counseling is done only before the BOR, then we are not spending enough time doing it. A few questions are: Explain to me what is a Good Turn? What was your Good Turn for this day? Can you summarize your Good Turns for the past year by giving me the top three?

 

The listener can pick up good information from these sessions. Plans can then be made for effective interventions.

 

One important Leadership skill is "setting the example". It is generally done quietly. It may be wearing the proper uniform, showing up on time at the correct meeting, showing patience when confronted, or doing a Good Turn. Several years ago a Den Chief impressed the Cubs in his den by being polite. They discussed this behavior with the Den Mother after one meeting. These Scouts decided that being polite was something that they wanted to do. The Den Mother complimented the Den Chief on his good behavior. The Den Chief was perplexed that the Cubs had not learned this behavior elsewhere because it was a behavior that he had learned from his parents and reinforced through Scouting, so these Cubs should have already learned it. It just so happened that those changes that the Cubs choose from that one example were significant and lead to several other changes that would make this column too long but it happened. It was a Good Turn that was unintended and the Scout did not know he was doing it. It didn't make any difference about the intent or the present knowledge of the act because the Scout was busy being a Scout. He was guilty by constant association. It was also one of his top three Good Turns for that year. Fuzzy Bear

 

[EagleInKY]

It's been over two months (hard to believe) since I started this thread. I received such good advice, I felt it my duty to update the forum on what has transpired since then.

 

Quick recap - I have a challenging scout who has a variety of issues, and constantly is a disruption to the troop. I felt that he wasn't living up to the Scout Oath & Law, and was curious as to how much latitude I had in interpreting that requirement.

 

Shortly after the last post, we held our Troop JLT. Since we're a small, new troop, all 9 boys were invited and were present. This young man was his usual self. He was disruptive and didn't "get it". During one of the discussion excercises, he was fiddling with his "troop rope". (We all have a 3 ft rope tied to a biner, useful for a variety of reasons). I asked him to stop, as he was disruptive to the group. After a couple of warnings, I asked him to hand me the rope. He threw it at me, missing my face by inches! I managed every ounce of restraint, and asked him to pick it up and hand it to me. He walked over, picked it up, and then tossed it to me. I allowed it to bounce to the floor. Again, I asked him to pick it up and hand it to me. This time, he did so.

 

Fast forward to the Troop Meeting. We were doing a knot relay. He asked if he could borrow a rope so I loaned him mine. After the meeting, his mom saw him hand me my rope back. She asked where his was, and he said that I "stole it". I quickly corrected him, and told her we needed to talk. Another committee member, who was present at JLT, proceeded to tell her the story. She was shocked and upset, and agreed to meet with us.

 

Committee Chairman and I met with Mom & Dad, and discussed the issues. I've actually posted some of their comments in a diffrent thread, but it went something like this:

* child has anger management issues

* child doesn't take "no" as an answer (he needs the "why" with it).

* child doesn't respond to leadership from other kids.

 

I agreed that I would do my part to explain the rationale behind "no", whenver possible. But, more importantly, I explained the boy-leadership model and that he had to get with the program. I also explained the Scout Oath & Law requirement, and that I was not going to approve him for his next rank (2nd Class) until I saw improvement. They agreed. I followed up with the boy at the next troop meeting and told him the same.

 

Fast forward to Scout Sunday. We had a pot-luck and a COH after services. Boy did two things - First, after asking the scouts to go through line last, he jumped to the front because he brought his own food. Second, during an activity report in the COH, he embarrassed us all. I won't go into the details, but I'll just say that his mom was in tears. Afterward, I reminded the boy of the requirement and that these were prime examples of his problem. He said he understood.

 

Since then, he's had a couple of minor issues. I've pointed them out immediately, and explained that they were examples of his behavior problems.

 

Finally, I'm happy to say, it seems to be making an impact. The past three weeks have been great. He's a little hyper at times, but is - in general - behaving well. He asks me every week how his behavior is and when will he be ready for his BOR!

 

I'm not calling it a victory yet, but I think it's finally sinking in. I plan to put him up for 2nd class next month. If he makes it through another month, including a campout (the real test), I'll put him up for 1st class the following month. He's already completed all the other requirements for both ranks.

 

Thanks again for the advice.

[Eagledad]

>>Since then, he's had a couple of minor issues. I've pointed them out immediately, and explained that they were examples of his behavior problems.

[Eamonn]

Most of us would agree that the understanding of the Scout Law and Oath is a journey. How it is seen or managed by a 11 year old is different that it is by a 16 year old. Throw in different family backgrounds and different family values add in somethings that might not be working as they ought and we have a individual.

What would happen if we asked the Scout if he thought that he had met the requirement and why he thought that he had?

We as adults can help him meet some of the requirements with service projects and the like. We can remind the Lad about the daily good turn or maybe even point him in the direction of who might need a daily good turn.

Eamonn

[Eagledad]

>>What would happen if we asked the Scout if he thought that he had met the requirement and why he thought that he had?

[EagleInKY]

Eamonn & Barry,

 

Great points from you as always. I am certainly not expecting perfection out of this lad. I'm looking for measurable, noticable improvement. I didn't go into great detail in my post, but I'll say that the boy has exhibited many bad traits, and routinely broke 5 of the 12 points. However, when my son came home from last week and said "Bobby was really good tonight, and has for the past few weeks!", then I know it's starting to be noticed.

 

My conversations with "Bobby", have gone something like this:

 

Me - "Bobby, when you (fill in the blank), how do you think that fit into the Scout Oath and Law?"

 

Bobby - "Huh?"

 

Me - "Well, you remember us talking about showing Scout Spirit and living by the Scout Oath and Law?"

 

Bobby - "Yeah,.... oh, yeah shuffling, looking at feet"

 

Me - "That's not a good example of A Scout is , is it?"

 

Bobby - "No Sir. dejected look I don't think I'll ever be able to pass this."

 

Me - "Now Bobby, we wouldn't be wasting time on this if it weren't possible. You've shown improvement, just keep up the good work."

 

Bobby - "Okay, I'll try".

 

 

So, I'm right there with you. Don't expect perfection out of an 11 year old, hyperactive child. But, I do want to see improvement and an honest attempt to do his best.

 

Thanks again.

[Eamonn]

EagleKY

Thanks for the kind words.

Howz about doing it backward?

Go out of your way to find things that this Lad is doing right.

Explain to him what a ethical choice is and when you talk with him ask him what ethical choices has he made today/ this week.

By the way I really admire the amount of time and effort that you are putting into this little fellow. You know that the reward is going to be humongous.(It just might take a while!!)

Eamonn

[EagleInKY]

Thought I'd do my part to bring the discussions back around to why we're really here - the kids.

 

Update on this situation. Last week at Scout camp, this lad passed his BOR for First Class. He's still far from perfect - but aren't we all. He's come a long way in six months. It shows what Scouting can do for a boy, if the program is followed. I expect it will take him a while to get to Star. He has to demonstrate more leadership before he'll be elected/appointed to another position. But I think it will happen eventually.

 

This is the type of advice I come to the forum for. Not that Issues & politics stuff.

[timberscout]

I use a form that I found on a web site, sorry dont remember the site, but it is a Scout law servay that is available to the scouts when they set up the SM conferance. It askes for examples of how they have demostrated each point of the scout law. The form is brought with them to the SMC and we go over it together, if the scout has a hard time comming up with one of the points, I try to ask open ended questions to get them thinking. But the point is that they know what they are doing and are the ones that have to live with their choices.

 

This is a small community and I do know when things go the wrong direction, and or had parents ask for help, and do address issues in the process of going over this survay, but I try to leave this meeting with the boy thinking about the good things that he has done, Concentrate on the positive.

 

I am a firm believer in: Keep it simple and Keep it fun! Lets face it be told that you are doing wrong is not fun, but if you can show them that they can do the right thing and have fun doing it they will come.