Requirement - Demonstrate Scout Oath & Law

[EagleInKY]

Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class all have a requirement that reads "Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life." This is a great requirement, but one that we struggle with how to measure. I'm interested in getting feedback from this illustrious forum.

 

A few weeks back, I had a scout that is getting close to Second Class approach me with a question. He pointed to requirement #9. He said, "I've already done that, do I have to do it again?". I explained that we are always expected to live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law. And that even I, many years after being a Boy Scout, need to hold myself to that very same standard. He acted disgusted and disappointed. He huffed and puffed and walked away.

 

Now, you probably won't be surprised to hear that this Scout is one of our biggest "challenges". I do not believe he lives by the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life. While I have seen improvement over time, he still doesn't get it.

 

My question is whether this requirement is enforceable as something to hold a boy back on? The Scout Handbook says that only the scout can judge whether he is living by these principles. Obviously, this Scout would say that he is. I'm curious as to your thoughts. I hope it spurs some interesting discussion.

[Scoutmaster Ron]

First I don't think it's supposed to be measurable, you may during your S.M. conference thru casual conversation ask him about it and maybe provide som examples. Now can you hold him back from it if he has been dishonest..I think I would or at least delay it if a Scout had been dishonest with me (using Trustworthy as an example) I also would be very interested in what others thought.

 

 

[cheffy]

As Scoutmaster Rod stated I usually ask this casually during a SM conference. However I ask for more than just one example. You almost always get the "I went to church yesterday so I was reverant". The best comeback for that one is "Were you?" We once had a Scout who was cheating in school. His dad asked us to ask the Scout if he was Trustworthy. The kid must have thought I was Karnac.

[mk9750]

EaglenKY,

 

This issue has been discussed at least a couple of times, so you might want to review some old threads for some insight.

 

I am the Advancement Chair, not a SM, but I've had to formulate a game plan for dealing with this issue too. What I've come up with, after reading so many of the great posters here, is that I now have a philosophy that gets the boy to satisfy himself that he has met the requirements. When it comes to Scout Spirit, during BORs, I (or one of my co-conspirators) asks a boy if he has demonstrated Scout Spitit in his everyday life. When he says yes, we ask for examples. If we are aware of occassions when he has not, we ask him to explain how these acts square with his assertation that he has lived according the the Scout Oath and Law. The conversation usually is a great back and forth that leads to the Scout understanding that failures are a part of life, and that if he is making a full effort, and correcting things when he goes off the path, he can feel comfortable knowing that he has complied with the requirment.

 

On occasion, we've had boys who know themselves that they need to improve this significantly. the conversation then centers on him coming to the realization that he needs more time to work on this. Once he does, I offer the Scout the chance to suspend the BOR and set a date for when we could reconvene to review his effort at Scout Spirit.

 

Some Scouts have been slower than others at realizing this, but I have never denied a Scout at the BOR. I've had five or six ask to suspend the conversation.

 

Mark

[Mike F]

I know of one SM who insists each Scout be able to provide examples of how he has lived up to each of the 12 points of the Scout Law. If they can't think of one (or more), come back later and we'll finish up.

The SM says the word is out, so the Scouts are paying more attention to the Law - not only in preparation for an SM conference, but all the time.

I haven't tried this yet, but it's an interesting approach.

[andrewcanoe]

The troop I work with asks these questions during the BOR as a reminder that everyone needs to work on scut spirit, it is a goal that can never be completely obtained because there is always room for improvement.

 

"How do you live the points of the scout law and show scout spirit in your day to day life away from the troop meeting?"

 

We then follow up with "How can you show more?"

[scoutingagain]

Mark,

 

I like your approach. It recognizes that a scout will likely fail to live up to the Oath and Law at some point but also asks how he will improve his life to do better. More importantly it gets the scout to recognize this. I'd like to give it a try at our next BOR.

 

This is stuff I hang aroung the Forum for.

 

Thanks for asking the question EagleInKY.

 

SA

[Bob White]

Mark, a great approach, and outstanding understanding and use scouting.

 

BW

[KoreaScouter]

As a SM, I pay very close attention to Scout Spirit, and except for my own son, sign off that requirement along with the SM conference, myself. I even annotate the Troop Record Book when any of our Scouts have SS breaches that come to my attention -- you can be sure that it will be a topic of discussion at SM conference time.

 

While I appreciate Mark's approach as an Advancement Chair and the fact that they're not "rubber stamping" the BORs, I'd like to ask a question that is in no way intended to question the dedication of the unit leaders or assume I know anything about his unit. Here goes: If Scouts are "recusing" themselves from their BORs for Scout Spirit, is there a disconnect between the committee and the Scoutmaster regarding what "Show Scout Spirit" means?

 

Many advancement requirements are cut/dried -- you earned the MBs or you didn't; you had ten activities or you didn't, and so on. However, with the requirements that are subject to interpretation (active, POR, Scout Spirit, for example), I try to ensure, before the SM conference, that the committee and I are consistent in how we apply these requirements, across all the ranks. I like to think that unless a Scout "melts down" at his BOR, if he makes it past me he'll complete his BOR with a rank advancement. Needless to say, we haven't "bat a thousand", but I don't recall a Scout having to re-do his BOR because my definition of the requirement was different from the BOR's...

 

Perhaps it's just a difference in technique; I prefer to make tough judgements at my level -- I discuss SS with the SPL and ASMs, but haven't bumped "grey-area" Scouts up to the BOR for them to make or force the call. I have a couple Scouts right now who are otherwise complete or near-complete on requirements for advancement to their next rank. But, they're deficient in Scout Spirit, they know it because we've discussed it, and they know what they need to do to fix it. The rest is up to them. I'm not going to waste his time or the BOR's time by scheduling him for a BOR, unless it's one of those "special" ones that's intended to discuss why he's not advancing.

 

Again, I don't mean to stick a pin in anyone's hiney; please don't take it that way. I'd like to know if I'm out in left field here, though.

 

KS

 

 

[buffalo2]

You make a valid point KS, and I'm really not sure which side of that I come down on. As an ASM I keep a little closer to the trenches in an effort to keep our SM freed up and observe some of this from a distance. Not so sure I like the idea of a BOR turning a Scout away without a pretty good reason; offering a firm standard and a clear-cut path for correction.

But I do like the idea of (someone) asking the Scout what he has done to adhere to our ideals - and believe that the most important part of that is having him recognize where and how he might have done better. Too often these boys get wrapped up in questionable situations at a fast pace and their quick decisions aren't always the best ones. (happens to adults too as I recall)When they have the opportunity to rethink their actions (or prethink?) they will learn and grow.

Good discussion

[Fat Old Guy]

Back in olden days the handbook said that the SM would contact parents, teachers, ministers to dertermine how well the Scout lived by the Scout Law. If that was still the case, no one would advance ;-)(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[Scoutmaster Ron]

Definitions of the Scout,Patrol & Troop Spirit can be found in the SPL handbook pg 25 it may be used as a reference

[mk9750]

KS,

 

You're one of my favorite (or favourite for Eamonn - LOL) posters on this board, and you'd have to be a lot tougher on me to offend me. I agree 100% with you, and our Troop works very much the same as yours when it comes to SM conferences and BORs. I tried to go back and count how many of these occassions I remember, and I think it was three or four (I admit to throwing a number out that I hadn't really thought about before I typed it). If the most recent is representative of all of them, the boy was a friend of my son's, who was over our house all of the time. He spoke very freely one day while having dinner with us about an incident harassing a girl a school with a group of other guys. He felt it was quite funny, and couldn't understand why the Assistant Principal was all in a tither about it.

 

During the weeks before our CoHs, it is very common for the SM to do conferneces in almost an assembly line fasion, and then send the guys over to our area where a group of adults do BORs. In this case, the SM had no reason to know of this, the Scout did not mention it to the SM, as it was probably 6 - 8 months before the conference. But because I knew about it, and keep the same kind of notes it sounds like you do, I brought it up in his BOR.

 

In no way do I want to portray our SM as derelict. He is very thourough at SM conferences, particularly for 1st class and up. He just didn't know about this one, and I did. In another instance I remember, I was acting as SM at summer camp, and our SM was not there. One boy had a number of insances at summer camp that the SM was not aware of.

 

On the other hand, the SM has dealt with issues at the SM conference that we as a BOR would not even know existed. I recognize that everyone feels as though the way they do things is best, or at least works for them. I don't mean to sound as arrogant as I'm sure I will when I say this works for us, but it does. I'm very proud of the character, and the skills, that our boys exhibit. Whenever presented with a venue where I can compare guys in our Troop to guys in other Troops in our area, I've never failed to feel proud.

 

Thanks for the challenge. I hope my explaination makes sense.

 

Mark

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

Mark,

 

Absolutely, and you bring up a dynamic in your Troop that I've had to deal with too. As FOG mentioned, the polling of other adults in a Scout's life to determine SS isn't required, and certainly doesn't happen like it was expected to in days gone by.

 

Yet, if a Scout's parent is a leader (or even, much to their chagrin, the SM), or if he pals around with one who is, or if the community's small, or if the CO is a church, private school, or has some other "hook" in the Scout, the SM will almost by default know a lot more about the Scout's life during the 166 1/2 hours a week he's NOT at Troop meetings. So, how do you keep the playing field "level"?

 

In other words, I know almost immediately if one Scout in my Troop has had a bad day at school, dogged it on his chores, fell asleep in church, pestered his sister, or given his mom a "pushback" on the yard work. Yep, mine (great kid 99% of the time, but no different from any other 13-year old in the end). I don't have surveillance cameras on the others, so how do I treat this "insider information"? What I've come down to is trying not to put him at an "unfair disadvantage" because his life with the roses and the thorns is playing out full time before my eyes. It must be working okay, because he doesn't feel like he's oppressed or constantly under the microscope.

 

The approach I use is that Scout Spirit is a journey that probably doesn't have a destination; I'm not insisting on perfection, but that they do their best and show continuous, even if gradual, improvement.

 

I, too, have used the "how do you think you've done?" approach in counseling, and find that the counselee is usually much tougher on themselves than I would have been.

 

KS

[Eamonn]

While I really don't have that much to do with Scouts on the troop level. I do have a lot to do with the one Scout who lives in my house.

A long time ago I stopped coparing "Us and them." We as a family live within a set of values that we all share.We of course follow the law of the land. At times these values do come into question and there is open discussion and debate. OJ, being 15 years old is the person who asks most of the questions. Or has at times not lived up to these values. Of course he is not the only member of the family who allows this to happen. I at times fall very short on some things.

Everyone in the family is a member of the BSA.While at times we get lost in all the stuff that is going on and the activity. We as a family have taken the values of the BSA to heart.As a dad I use a lot of the tools that Scouting has given me to try and be a good parent. I try to set the example for my son. Again at times I don't do as good a job as I would like.

One great thing about a family is that we don't and never have shyed away from the word love. I really love my family. Even when one of us fails or does something wrong. This love is strong enough to bind us and hold us through the rough spots.

We all are very aware that we are not just Scouts for 90 minutes a week or when we are dressed up in uniform. OJ the Scout is just OJ.

Scouts and Scouting has given him a lot of stuff that has now become part of him. Maybe it was always there but Scouting has reinforced it. Yes there are areas that we all need to work on. When I lose my cool and become upset. You can bet that being kind is a long way from happening.I know when this happens the example that I'm setting is not that great. While we share many if not most of the same values. We do not always have them in the same order of importance. Right now he thinks that being physically fit is very important, while I am happy to be in good health. He at this time does not see being part of the church as being a high priority. While I do. He is fast becoming his own person. My hope as a father is that I have laid a good foundation. I like to think that he lives up to the Scout Oath and Law. But at the end of the day only he knows where he has failed and where there is room for improvement.

Baden Powell is to have said that "It is better to do good then be good." One easy thing about doing good is most of the time there is an end result (Of course the same goes for doing bad.) Living good can be a tough thing to determine. OJ doesn't need to work on being a lot of things. He already is. At times he may seem to lack loyalty but he has a knack of working things out sometimes with help from his mother and I. Sometimes he will just sort things out.

So how would you evaluate a boy who is not your son. How much do you really know about him and his family? While there are a lot of wise and wonderful postings so far. I think that this requirement is more about giving the Scout an opportunity to stop, reflect and do a self- assessment of how he thinks he is doing. We as adults do offer the Scouts/youth in our programs the chance to "Do Good" via the program. We give Lads the opportunity to learn to work together and learn good leadership. Still as the sun goes down how they feel about what they have done that day is theirs. They own it. They know if they have done their best.

Eamonn