CharityAK Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 My son, a patrol leader, came home from scouts a bit frustrated (I'm the Advancement Chair, but was at karate class). They have Fall Jamboree this weekend. His patrol had planned to do some "extreme biking". They had discussed this for several weeks, planned it, etc. I wasn't there so I'm assuming, based on what he told me, that they did an adequate job planning. There was some resistance from the scout leaders who seemed to prefer that the boys go hiking instead. Not sure what their concerns were as I wasn't there, but I'm assuming the leaders concerns were valid as these are reasonable men who I trust. The boys, citing the leaders oft-quoted philosophy that the boys should show initiative, leadership..the whole boy-ran-troop thing, held their ground on the biking and thought the issue was settled. Last night going over the last minute checking for the weekend, the leaders again resisted the biking and tried to axe it. Son said he and the SM had a bit of a "battle of the wills" regarding the issue with him pointing out that they had already planned, discussed it and thought it was settled. The boys prevailed, but I guess the leaders aren't happy about it. The boys also mentioned their concerns about the "boy ran troop" thing being mouthed but not feeling supported in it with the Committee Chair. My concern: *Was my son respectful in holding his ground? He says he was. Should he have just done what the SM wanted? Should I follow up with SM to see if there was a problem? Or should I just butt out and let the SM and son work this out between the two of them? The SM and I are on good terms. I trust him and consider him a friend of the family. I would hope he would tell me if son copped an attitude as I'd want to address it as a point of character instruction at home. Son is usually a person of integrity, but can be tactless at times. And for general discussion... The scout leader has the benefit of experience and wisdom in foreseeing problems boys may not when they are selecting and planning events. When it comes down to a disagreement regarding preferences for an event whose desires win out? The leadership? The boys? What if the leadership really dislikes a patrol's decision? How far do boys go in holding their ground in order to be a boy-ran troop? Or should they recognize the experience of their elders and go with their guidance? Charity - Trying to help son be balanced. Be a leader and be strong when he thinks he's right but meeting resistance WHILE also be willing to consider that he might be wrong and others know better..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I can envision reasons why adults would overrule the decisions of the PLC, albeit very rarely. But those reasons should be communicated and be crystal clear to the boys. If your son can not explain to you what those reasons were, then a private, non-threatening chat with the SM is not out of order. As you say, tact can go a long way to settling a dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk9750 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Charity, Call me sappy, but I think this is a wonderful situation. A lot of people are going to learn from this if everyone handles it well. The only "mistake" I see that was made was by the adult leadership. They may well have valid reasons to attempt to steer the Scouts away from biking. the most obvious one to me is making certain the resources exist to do it safely, and mostly, in my mind, that means training in how to safely cycle in groups. If something like this is the issue, than a better way for the SM to handle this may have been asking questions like "Have you considered ..." Or "Are you sure you have the knowledge to do this safely?" I don't think he should be nixing the idea, even if his concerns are well founded. I also question how clear he was when the issue was discussed the first time. Sounds to me like your son is reasonable, and he understood the issue to be settled. If it wasn't the SM probably did a poor job making his position understood. Now, for how to proceed. 1st, I would do nothing to interfere in the relationship between the SM and your son. Relationships between our adult leaders and respected youth in our Troop have a certain "Yin - Yan" to them. Unless there is some reason to suspect outright disrespect from either or both parties, I'd bet that your son and his SM will work this ou themselves, and both will learn from it. How could your son have improved? My first thought would be to have plans like they made circulated in writing to all involved, and copied to key adult leaders. Written plans allow anyone who might have a problem see that it is a firm plan, and speak up in the appropriate timeframe. In our Council, someone in our Troop (our CC does it) would need to have known these plans well in advance to prepare a Tour Permit. This would be the time for the SM to object, so that alternate resources can be arranged. Did your son do anything wrong by standing his ground? Probably not. Even if he was vehement in his defense, he could well still have been polite about it. And learning how to defend a position properly is a valuable life skill. Unless you know for sure your son acted ungentlemanly (is that a word?), I'd chalk this up to a great oppurtunity for all to learn. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 I like what Mark has said. Sounds like some good old Uniontown horse sense!! Eamonn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk9750 Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 If it was Uniontown horse sense, than credit my dad! Most of my few good qualities I inherited from him (unless I'm talking to my mom!). And, As I must have mentioned somewhere before, he is from near Uniontown. A great man, he was. I miss him terribly. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Darn it Dan, how can I show off my superior scout savvy if you keep writing so fast. Time for me to find another forum. I can't add anything Charity, but I think you have a pretty good SM there. Patience is a golden quality that is hard to find in leaders. I said before that boy run is the willingness of adults to grow past their fears by training the scouts. But even after the training, letting the scouts step past your fear can still be bit of a leap. It's very easy to be a leader by the book when your experiences are also by the book. But that monstrous grey area of the unexpected requires courage. It's that courage that separates Scout leaders from Master Scouters. I agree with Mark, both your son and the SM are learning from this. I love this scouting stuff. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharityAK Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Thanks for your great insight and helpful comments! The boys had a blast with their biking weekend. Everything went well for them. No evidence of any hard feelings on anybody's part. You are right...we have a good SM, lots of experience, very committed and selfless. That's why I was concerned about my son needing to be open to hearing his input. He has years and years of experience in scouting and I know he sees things the boys don't. Since SM can be a bit gruff on occasion, sometimes the boys think he's just being a pain and miss the point he's trying to help them see. The fact that the weekend went so well should build confidence on both sides - both in themselves and in each other. Charity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharityAK Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Forgot to say... I also really liked the advice to have son put his plans in writing. This would go a long way towards reassuring leadership that the boys have indeed thought things through and made plans. And it's just a good skill for the boys to develop as well. SM must have felt some confidence in son's planning because he asked him to consider running for SPL - which son has decided to do. Charity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraT7 Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Wow! I could only WISH that this would happen in our troop - though it isn't the scoutmaster who wants to change outings, it's the committee. Someone has taught the boys in your troop WELL! Great to see things working the way they SHOULD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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