Scout flashes knife at another at summer camp

[Laurie]

silver-shark: With all due respect, jerryz is neither making excuses for this boy nor sweeping his actions under the rug. Removing his rights to use a knife, saw, and ax by removing his Totin' Chip deals directly with the problem, focusing on the problem itself. Making him earn it again is appropriate and had the boy acted with the proper respect to begin with, he'd not need a second teaching time. If the parents of the boy on the receiving end of an admittedly poor and dangerous joke are willing to accept this, then why go further? If they felt charges would be appropriate, I would think they could still press them and that noone would blame them. They are still his parents, and if they remain unsatisfied, they are certainly other avenues for them to turn to if they feel it is necessary to do so. Just my thoughts, and I'm called "Mean Old Mrs. L" because of my enforcing rules at in school, at home, and in Cubs.

[silver-shark]

My apologies. I hadn't read jerryz's post in a few days and had completely forgotten about the 3 month probation part of the deal.

 

The only thing I would have suggested differently might have been for him to be excluded from the next outing.

 

I too am pleased that the police were not brought into the situation, however, had this occurred on the way to school, they surely would have been.

 

My frustration last night had more to do with parents blaming ADD or ADHD for their childs behavior. I've already had plenty of that this week. I believe that either they control their behavior, or it will control them.

 

Thanks for bringing me back to reality Barry.

[jerryz]

Jerryz, you are not doing this boy or his family a favor by sweeping it under the rug. My experience with this type behavior, which includes other scouts, 2 sons with ADD, and 1 son with ADHD tells me that this boy now sees no, or little, consequence for this type behavior, if both you, his SM, and his father can explain it away.

 

 

Silver-shark

 

In no way did this incident get swept under the rug. On the contrary, I was concerned that I could be making too much of a deal of it. None of the adult leaders, including myself and the boy's father attempted to explain anything away. In fact, the boy's father was extremely upset and as shocked as were the other adults. He had little to say than to apologize for his son's behavior.

 

As for the boy, I believe he really appreciates the gravity of the stupid thing he did. He just crossed over three months ago and is only 11 years old. Having to sit with me in a SM conference terrified him. He was sure that I was going to throw the book at him. However, I let our troop's mission statement guide my actions as SM:

 

"The mission of our troop is to prepare young men to make ethical choices based on the values in the Scout Oath and Law and to develop skilled leaders who encourage others to do the same."

 

With these words, I tried to use this as a learning experience for the boy. I'm not qualified as a professsional counselor, and I'll leave that job to the professionals. If anything, this incident has made me and the other adult leaders more aware of his problem and how to deal with him in the future. As his SM, I can help this boy to see the error of his ways and to model his behavior on the Scout Oath and Law.

 

The punishment for this boy was enough to get his attention, I'm sure. As for removing the future threat, I hope that it works in this case. But I'm sure that there will be another situation, perhaps with this boy or another, that will test the line again. While we as adult leaders strive to make Scouting a "safe place", we cannot guarantee that. We can only do our best.

 

It is my goal to help our scouts to achieve their potential as young men and to strive to become better, learning through their mistakes.

 

 

[evmori]

Fat Old Guy,

You would be endangering the fish!

 

Ed

[Eagledad]

>>My frustration last night had more to do with parents blaming ADD or ADHD for their childs behavior.

[silver-shark]

Jerry

 

You did good!

 

Again, my apologies. I over reacted.

[frank10]

In our troop, the Scoutmaster would report it to the Committee Chairman and he whould would take over from there. The CC would contact victoms family and assure them that matter is being looked into and that they will be kept informed.

Since this case does not look to have any disputed facts, the Scout in question would then be asked to apear before the troop committee with his parents.

In most cases the other scout and his parents will also be invited but will may be asked to wait outside the room for some parts of the procedings.

 

In cases where the scout used poor judgement we use the "car accident theory"... (You did't mean to cause harm but you did and as such you will be asked to do every thing with in his power to un do the damage).

Here the damage is that another scout (of family) no longer feels comfortable in the troop. The cure is respect and time. The scout would be asked to show his respect by making up with the other boy and to sit out the next event to allow the leaders the time to make the victom comfortable again.

In many cases the Scout is also asked for "court cost"... that is he may be asked to work at the local food bank the same number of man hours as the comittee has invested in this issue (normally 2 to 5 hours).

 

[LauraT7]

Two things struck me -

 

"My frustration last night had more to do with parents blaming ADD or ADHD for their childs behavior. I've already had plenty of that this week. I believe that either they control their behavior, or it will control them."

 

and

"He just crossed over three months ago and is only 11 years old. " "John" had just earned his totin chit that afternoon. Both myself and his father had specifically addressed the fact that a knife is a tool and not a play thing. However, the boy just made a bad decision - a rather foolish and immature decision. He was in the dark whittling on a walking stick to give his dad. Using a knife in the dark itself was not a smart idea."

 

I have noticed with the new boys and Totin' chits - that they are SO EAGER to get them and use those knives that IMMEDIATELY after earning them, they come back to camp and start breaking the rules they just "learned". (using the knives near traffic patterns is the most common one - they set up carving in the main area and people walk into their safety circle, they do the safety circle with an open knife, they walk around with an open knife, stuff like that) Not intentionally - but they have not had the time or the practice to absorb and internalize the information. they are young and excited, impulsive and seldom think beyond the immediate moment. They don't even have to be ADHD !

 

But BEING ADD increases the impulsivity. Just because they have EARNED the chip and are ALLOWED to carry and use a knife now - doesn't mean they SHOULD. (I also can't count the number of 'lost' knives the day after totin'chit day - ADHD or not)

 

i take offense at the comment "I believe that either they control their behavior, or it will control them." you are stating your 'belief' that ADD kids CAN control their behavior - and at 11 yrs old, 3 mos new in the troop, with the excitement of camp, an exciting game / competition, a new knife and totin' chit - a charged up atmosphere - someone is overloading this kid's 'control" button, beyond what he can handle. He has a lower tolerance level than most. Also, ADD kids need ALOT of repetition for something to sink in - they have a hard time FOCUSING and PAYING ATTENTION in the excitement of earning his chit - I'm sure alot of the info just blew right thru his head.

 

A troop leader may not know that - it depends on the individual child - had it been MY ADD child - I would know that it would take much more than ONE afternoon's lesson for him to know the proper use of a knife, and i would not have left him open to temptation or typical ADD forgetfullness by letting him carry it around. (I would not forbid it - but I would point out the advantages of leaving it in a safe place.)

 

I didn't hear any indication that the boys' parents used ADD as an excuse for his behavior - but it IS a contributing factor. No matter how 'normal' someone with ADD appears - because of medication or learned coping mechanisms - they STILL struggle with it all the time.

 

I try not to use my son's ADD as an "excuse" - but he has special needs and I try to make our troop aware of them and not let him get set up for a situation that overloads his circuits. He has now reached a point where HE knows when things get to be too much for him and most of the time, can extracate himself.

 

I am not in any way condoning or making excuses for this boys' pulling out the knife inappropriately - it was WRONG. But maybe Dad and the scout leader should have given him some pre-prep and special instructions knowing that this kind of temptation would be tough on his impulsivity.

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

jaeeyz,

Once again, I think you did the right thing. I also gotta agree with Fat Old Guy about wingnut's unit.

 

Keep up the good work, jerryz.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[silver-shark]

Hi LauraT7,

 

I think we probably agree more than we disagree.

 

When I said " I believe that either they control their behavior, or it will control them.", what I really meant to say is that I believe that for a boy to be successful as an adult, they need to learn to control their behavior, or it will control them. By control their behavior, I mean by using coping strategies.

 

Too many parents either believe, or want to believe that medication alone will solve the problem for their child. It won't, and when it doesn't, they're all too eager to pass it off as the ADD/ADHD problem, and "I just don't know why that darned medicine isn't working right".

 

The steps that you have taken with your son to help him find coping strategies are the key to his future well being. I whole heartedly aplaud the actions that you have taken with him!

 

I wish that I could say the same about more parents, but they happen to be few and far between. This is probably due to the fact that either one, or both of a child's parents suffer from the same thing. In my day we (yes, I'm sure that I too was ADD as a child and probably still am today) were called "air heads, spaced out, boneheads, etc..." Now we know what causes it and what it really is.

 

In my generation, all we had to go on WAS coping strategies. My kids make fun of me constantly, telling me that I'm anal retentive because of the way that I over organize things, but this is how I have learned (coping strategy) to keep things straight and on time.

 

Would medication have helped me more? Probably. Would it have done everything for me? No way!

 

I'm very concerned that more kids are not learning coping strategies. Rather than a Pediatrician referring a kid to a Psycologist, they are prescribing medications only, without teaching the coping strategies. Additionally, MANY kids are misdiagnosed as being ADD/ADHD every year because the tests that Pediatricians do (none of which are medical) are not nearly as thorough as what the Psycologists can give. As a result, many kids go untreated for other problems such as bi-polar disorder, depression and other emotional problem because of this.

 

The other thing that concerns me about the medications only method is that we just don't know what the long term effects are going to be. This is basically the drug Speed that they are taking to compensate for the chemical imbalance that is in their brain. That CAN'T be good for them in the long run. I don't see how they can continue to take it daily into adulthood if they don't learn coping strategies. Another good reason for your method.

 

I have to admit after coaching many sports for over 15 years, and being involved in scouting, that I have become very cynical about the words ADD and ADHD, when uttered by a parent USUALLY, AFTER a child has behaved inappropriately. I can't say if this was the case in Jerry's situation or not, and I jumped to a conclusion that I shouldn't have when I read it in the same paragraph. Again, my apologies... BUT, if I had a nickel for every time that I had a parent, after the fact, tell me that, "well... ya know... little Johnny... has ADHD..." When I dig a little deeper, I almost always find that there are no coping strategies being learned by the child to help them in the long run. Just the medications.

 

Enough of that... but I do have a couple of other observations.

 

First. "He just crossed over three months ago and is only 11 years old. If he crossed over he was a Weblo. If he was a Weblo, he probably earned a Whittling Chip. If he had a Whittling Chip, this was his second go around with knife safety. (All assumptions on my part of course.)

 

Secondly. "John" had just earned his totin chit that afternoon. Both myself and his father had specifically addressed the fact that a knife is a tool and not a play thing. However, the boy just made a bad decision - a rather foolish and immature decision. He was in the dark whittling on a walking stick to give his dad. Using a knife in the dark itself was not a smart idea."

 

and...

 

"But maybe Dad and the scout leader should have given him some pre-prep and special instructions knowing that this kind of temptation would be tough on his impulsivity."

 

Not to be critical, but I think there is maybe one more lesson to be learned by the adults. Jerry, it sounds like your TOTIN' CHIP program may have been in the form of a lecture by the adults to several scouts. Laura, it looks like your program works this way as well. I know that many others do it this way too. Until recently ours did too.

 

For something as important as a TOTIN' CHIP, or FIREM'N CHIT, since they pertain specifically to safety, it seems that the rules for advancement need to be scrutinized as closely as possible.

 

First. The boys are more apt to pay attention to another scout giving the instruction. I don't think it would be cheating to have a sylabus prepared for the instructors to follow, to make sure that all items are instructed. Our troop has them for these.

 

Secondly. Remember the steps are (and I'm paraphrasing. My books are not with me.)

 

1. A scout learns.

2. A scout is tested.

3. A scout is recognized.

 

Numbers 1 and 2 probably shouldn't be done on the same day if you truly want to know if they have absorbed the material.

 

During number 1, this is where all of the, "pre-prep and special instructions knowing that this kind of temptation would be tough on his impulsivity." effort in the world can be spent to make sure that the material is truly absorbed,

 

 

[Bob White]

"Bob,Now I'm really confused by your post.

"As far as "we can't punish kids for what didn't happen." Of course we can."

I thought we weren't allowd to punish kids, period. At least that has been you stance to this point."

 

Ed you have already agreed that the

Scoutmaster Handbook says that if a scoutt endangers his safety or the safety of others he should be sent home.

 

You also agreed that the Guide to Safe Scouting says that punishment should include the parents and the unit committee.

 

Why do you have a problem putting these two together? Send the scout home and let his parents and the troop committee determine a course of action.

 

What I said was punishment is not the responsibility of the SM or ASMs. Safety and welfare of the scouts is however.

 

Bob White

[Timm]

I had a similar incident occur at summer camp this year but rather than start a new thread, I'll just add it in here.

 

First, I'd like to comment on what has been posted here.

 

I see a lot of minimization of the seriousness of threatening a person with a knife occurring in the posts being made. Some posts describe the scouts act as just 'stupid and immature' which is a description that fits most criminal acts. Our judicial system is overwhelmed with those that have acted 'stupid and immature'. It was a crime nonetheless. Of course the act was 'just a bad joke', after he'd been reported. In general I see a lot of posts about what should be done to correct the criminal behavior. Very few discuss what should be done in the best interests of the troop.

 

In my case, at summer camp three weeks ago, a group of older scouts was going to a camp activity while a group of younger scouts attempted to tag along, much to the dismay of the older scouts. The groups got stretched out such that the younger scouts where behind two older scouts when one of the younger scouts tried to race in front of them. When he did one of the older scouts pulled out his knife and said, "If you take one more step I'll knife you." At this the other older scout instructed the scout with the knife to put it away, this wasn't safe... The younger scouts retreated to camp and reported it to the senior patrol leader who conducted an investigation, which resulted in the offending scouts knife being confiscated and some latrine duty. At some point the troop adult leader was notified, as was the camp staff. The child was not removed from camp, and neither the parent of the child who was assaulted or the child with the knife were notified of the incident and may have never found out had a conversation not been overheard during a committee meeting.

 

Clearly the adult leaders failed to take appropriate action at camp. The kid should have been sent home immediately. The adult leaders also failed in communicating to the parents of those kids involved. Now what is to be done with the kid making threats with the knife?

 

Would any of the other troops represented here be willing to accept, as a member, a scout who pulled his knife on another scout?

 

Would anyone allow their child to continue to interact in a group where flashing knifes and making threats to 'knife them' are tolerated? I don't know of any responsible parent that would. Maybe you'll call me an 'overprotective parent' but a parents job is to make sure that their children are safe, part of this means making sure that you approve of the company they keep.

 

If this had been any other youth organization the child committing the offense would be removed. No questions asked.

 

If this was to occur in your home, I'm sure the child would not be allowed to return, and, you probably would report it to the authorities.

 

Finally, we have to consider what we are teaching our children and what is best for the troop. Does anybody really think that latrine duty and taking his knife away will really teach him a lesson? What message did the other scouts receive?

 

[hops_scout]

Somebody pulling a knife in our troop is just a normal happening..... they dont mean anything, just bored and screwing around. The knives that you can open with a quick flick is part of the problem....they can grab them and whip it out in, when practiced, just seconds. I think the SPL did a good job in at least taking it into his own hands and looking into it, and THEN tell the adults.

[AnneinMpls]

Hops_Scout, do you think this is as it should be in your unit?

[hops_scout]

I know its not right, but I'm Star. And have only been Star for a week and it is the older boys doing who are all higher rank than me. Therefor, I have no control over it.