Scout flashes knife at another at summer camp

[Fat Old Guy]

"The reference to the ten Commandments was a historical one to show that intent was even considered in God's Laws to Moses. "

 

Back and fill, Mr. White. Back and fill.

 

As for scout with the knife, you need to show mens rea. All this kid is guilty of is stupidity.

[Laurie]

The Scout showed a lapse in judgement, acting immature, didn't actually hurt anyone. I agree. However, please correct me if I am wrong. The Totin' Chip is earned in order to give the boy the privilege (and I do consider this a privilege) of carrying and using wood tools. I have read in the requirements that this can be taken away if the Scout does not show responsibility in using his tools.

 

Would it be a bad idea for this boy to go through the training again to re-earn his Totin' Chip?

[silver-shark]

No, FOG, what this boy is guilty of is using a dangerous woods tool as a play thing, and in an extremely inappropriate manner at that.

 

If he has a TOTIN' CHIP, he already learned, then signed the card acknowledging HIS responsibilities for carrying and using this type tool.

 

He chose to either ignore or break the first 4 responsibilities on the back of his card in this instance.

 

Laurie

 

In an instance where we have taken a scouts TC away, he not only has to retake the course, but teach it to other scouts before he will get a new one. Then we make a recomendation to the Committee as to what further action we feel is appropriate. Possibly suspension, and/or probation.

 

Additionally, the scout needs to bring his parent to me to ask for his knife back. This makes a big impression on the young man.

 

acco40

 

I have to admit that I find your ban of the knives at the next 2 campouts to be a refreshing new look at the issue, but somewhat agree with Hunt that an overall collective ban might not get the impact we would be looking for. But, if it was done at the patrol level, with the guilty party's patrol, that would give the team impact that FOG is talking about. Something new to ponder for a recomendation to the Committee.(This message has been edited by silver-shark)

[jerryz]

Thanks for all of the input. Here is how I've handled the situation.

 

First, some additional background:

I met with my committee and received their input on how to address the situation. Several of you pointed out that our primary purpose as adult volunteers is to a) train the youth and b) to provide a safe place. This was the bottom line for our committee members. Since there was no actual threat to any scout, but just a stupid decision, they felt it did not warrant suspension or dismissal from the troop. They entrusted the final decision to me.

 

Next I met with both sets of parents to calmly review the facts.

 

The boy who flashed the knife (we'll call him John) has ADHD, but is not medicated, on the advice of his psychologist. His father is one of my ASM's who crossed over with his son 3 months ago. He has already completed Woodbadge and was horrified that his son would do something this stupid. "John" had just earned his totin chit that afternoon. Both myself and his father had specifically addressed the fact that a knife is a tool and not a play thing. However, the boy just made a bad decision - a rather foolish and immature decision. He was in the dark whittling on a walking stick to give his dad. Using a knife in the dark itself was not a smart idea.

 

The boy who was the victim (we'll call him Joe) was understandably frightened (also just crossed over 3 months ago). However, after he settled down, he realized that John was just trying to scare him and to get a laugh (or attention). His parents wanted some "flesh". They started out wanting to know why the incident had not been reported to authorities and wanting John to be kicked out of the troop. I explained that while John's actions were certainly ill-advised and inappropriate behavior, that there was no harm done nor intended. (Their son Joe was quite willing to forgive and forget and move on)

 

I then explained the what the consequences of John's actions would be.

 

First, he is being placed on probation for three months. In our troop, this means that another serious infraction will result in his dismissal from the troop.

 

Second, during his probation, he will not be allowed to carry or use a knife, axe or saw.

 

Third, he will work to re-earn his totin chip and will be charged to make a presentation to his patrol on wood's tools safety.

 

In meeting with John, I found him to be truly sorry that he hurt Joe and now regrets the decision he made. Hopefully he will learn from this situation. I have left any other "punishment" to his parents.

 

John's parents required John to write a personal letter of apology to Joe, his parents and to me, asking for their forgiveness. In addition, John's parents took him to his psychologist to discuss this incident. The psychologist has determined that John is not a threat but simply made an impulsive, immature action. They are currently re-evaluating whether medication may be of some help to John.

 

Joe's parents, as the discussion progressed, softened quite a bit. We found that they also had 2 other children with ADHD. The were quite emphathatic with John' parents. They found much common ground. I invited one or both to come along on our next several outings to witness for themselves the level of safety that we provide for the scouts. They seemed greatly relieved and indicated that Joe really liked our troop and they will allow him to stay. All in all, the discussion proved to be one of healing.

 

Thanks again for the ideas and input.

[Laurie]

Thanks for the update. This sounds like a good end to the story...or perhaps a good beginning to a new chapter of the scouting experience for these boys.

[Fat Old Guy]

"No, FOG, what this boy is guilty of is using a dangerous woods tool as a play thing, and in an extremely inappropriate manner at that."

 

All of which falls under the general category of stupidity. Stupidity takes many forms including but not limited to driving your car into a lake to see if it will float, getting your girlfriend pregnant because your buddy told you that briefs make you sterile and playing games with a knife.

 

 

[silver-shark]

I'm still trying to figure out what your point is Fat Old Guy.

 

People are penalized or punished every day for behaving stupidly. If they weren't, they'd think they could act just as stupidly again tomorrow.

 

A thought just ran through my mind of a Fat Old Guy being put into a squad car under the charge of reckless endangerment, still screaming "but officer... I just wanted to see if it would float..."

 

I've never heard of anyone beating a charge with the defense of "sorry... I guess I just acted stupidly... I won't do THAT again..."

[Eamonn]

Thank you for the update.

Well Done.

I'm really happy that both boys are still in the Troop.

Great job.

[Eagle74]

Handled well and in a manner that should achieve the desired end result.

[Twocubdad]

Sometimes folks (parents) will surprize you and behave themselves, dispite what we think of them. It's a shame, but we've become so accustomed to folks flying off the handle and act irrationally, we come to expect the worst of everyone.

 

Sounds like you handled it well and obtained a good result.

[evmori]

jerryz,

Excellent! Way to go! High fives all around! This situation should be put in BSA training courses and the way you handled it should be added, also!

 

Bob,

Now I'm really confused by your post.

 

"As far as "we can't punish kids for what didn't happen." Of course we can."

 

I thought we weren't allowd to punish kids, period. At least that has been you stance to this point.

 

"Coveting is a crime of intention, so is assault. You do not need to wait for the injury to take place to know that a behavior is inherently dangerous or illegal."

 

Nope - both are as Fat Old Guy stated - crimes of deed. One cannot commit assult without injuring someone.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[silver-shark]

Ed

 

You and I cannot go out and pull a knife, a gun or any other deadly weapon out on someone without some serius consequenses. Why should it be different for a child? Aren't they are bound by our same laws.

 

Punishing a kid that that has some serious problems (or he wouldn't be in counciling to begin with) and stopping a future threat, are 2 completely different things.

 

While this might not be something to be concerned about with some boys, the behavior is still wrong. Pulling a knife on someone, whether as a joke or not, is wrong.

 

Just because this boy has ADD, ADHD. or whatever, doesn't make it right or OK.

 

Jerryz, you are not doing this boy or his family a favor by sweeping it under the rug. My experience with this type behavior, which includes other scouts, 2 sons with ADD, and 1 son with ADHD tells me that this boy now sees no, or little, consequence for this type behavior, if both you, his SM, and his father can explain it away.

 

I guarantee you, his outburst/plea for attention will be louder and possibly more dangerous the next time.

 

God help you when it happens!(This message has been edited by silver-shark)

[evmori]

Silver Shark,

This kid made a mistake and I feel the way jerryz handled it was perfect. Why do we need to get the authorities involved? Sure what he did was wrong. Just because he is ADHD makes no difference. He is still expected to follow the rules.

 

The Scout just earned his Totin Chit & he was probably pretty full of himself & made a mistake. We all do. But I don't see the need to throw the book at him.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eagledad]

>>you are not doing this boy or his family a favor by sweeping it under the rug.

 

I guarantee you, his outburst/plea for attention will be louder and possibly more dangerous the next time.

[Fat Old Guy]

"I've never heard of anyone beating a charge with the defense of "sorry... I guess I just acted stupidly... I won't do THAT again..." "

 

Most of the time stupidity with no criminal intent and no serious harm never goes to trial. Retribution is made and a lesson is learned.

 

By the way, if I drive my car into a lake to see if it floats, who am I endangering?