Scout flashes knife at another at summer camp

[LovetoCamp]

Confiscation of the knife, Safety lesson from the SPL and SM, and several hours of scrubbing the latrine area I believe would instill a huge lesson to this young man. You folks are subscribing to this "zero tolerance philosophy" that is so ridiculously out of control. The kid who forgot that a butter knife was in the bed of his pickup truck suspended for having a weapon. The kid suspended for having GI Joe with a 2 inch M1 Garand. Suspending the 5 year old for sexual harrassment for planting a smooch on a classmate. No tolerance. How's that overly friendly kid going to handle that label? Zero tolerance replaced common sense and we took another step backwards.

[Twocubdad]

I've not bothered to re-read the whole thread, but I recall that JerryZ's original incident was more a matter of joking around but using poor judgement. "Take one more step and I'll knife you" is in a whole 'nother catagory.

 

Yes, intent makes a difference. It seems apparent to me that the boy in Timm's post was intending to threaten and intimidate the other Scout. In my book, that's much more serious than a the first incident and requires much more serious consequences.

[Timm]

Twocubdad got it right. The scout in my post used a deadly weapon (a knife)to threaten and itimidate another scout. Without trying to overreact, I believe that this incident warrants more than just getting your knife confiscated and extra cleaning duty.

 

Sure we all see the sometimes ridiculousness of the zero tolerance policy. But society has gone to this extreme because people have been incapable of exercising 'good judgement' when faced with situations such as we have here. The knife was not a GI joe Two inch plastice knife. I think you really need to put yourself, or your own child at the receiving end of the threat, and you would quickly conclude that disciplenary action taken was not sufficient. And when deciding what should be done I think you should not just consider what should be done to the scout who pulled the knife but what is also best for the troop.

 

A 'no harm, no foul' attitude is just burying your head in the sand to the seriousness of the incident.

 

I probably should have started a second post because the incidents, jerryzs' and mine, are somewhat different.(This message has been edited by Timm)

[dsteele]

I haven't yet read the thread about unfair actions of the BSA, but this will, on the surface appear to be one.

 

If the older Scout threatened a younger Scout in seriousness with a knife and intent to do bodily harm, it should be reported to the Scout Executive who will in turn report it to the authorities. The older Scout's membership will be revoked immediately and the appeals process will be outlined in the letter delivered to him.

 

Scouts do not threaten Scouts and adults do not threaten Scouts.

 

I agree with those who began this thread with a young scout trying to startle someone that it was a bad idea on the young Scout's part and that there should be some ramifications -- but what was described by another poster as an older Scout saying "Take one more step and I'll knife you . . . " is crossing the line.

 

I'm sorry if I've upset you, but sometimes, in the course of doing my job, I have to upset people.

 

DS

[LovetoCamp]

Teenage boys need to be shown the proper way to handle the knife and the proper way to act when they have a knife. If we threw out every teenaged boy who said something stupid at the wrong time.....

 

He should be taught the proper uses of the knife (outdoor tool), and that making threats even in jest, is the wrong thing to say and why.

 

Teach them. Train them.

 

 

[altabill]

"Teach them. Train them"...I believe we already do that.

 

This boy is almost 15-years old. He earned his Totin' Chit when he was twelve. He knows what a knife is and how it is supposed to be used. Not being taught is is not an excuse for the behavior Timm describes.

 

I agree that zero tolerance rules can sometimes backfire (as pointed out in the case of the boy with the GI Joe gun or accidently having a kitchen knife in a school lunch). However, the incident described is was not a "mistake". You bet it was stupid. However, it was intentional. This kid took a tool, used it as a weapon, and intentionally threatened another. In Washington state, that constitutes a felony. It does not matter what the intentions of the older Scout are. What matters is the preception of the younger boy. If he felt threatened at the time (not in hindsight), you have a very serious offense.

 

Kick him out...maybe. Suspend him for a long time...for sure. If policy exists within the council/district, no question. Follow the policy. This older Scout needs to understand that his behavior was wrong, dangerous, and criminal. Maybe this will keep him from doing somthing like this again in a venue where the stakes would be much higher.(This message has been edited by altabill)(This message has been edited by altabill)

[LovetoCamp]

I think there's a difference between a gangbanger and a tenderfoot. I cringe every time I hear the words, "I'll kill you". But, occasionally I still hear them coming out of a kid's mouth. Instead of helping the parties cool off and telling them that "I'll kill you" is not acceptable language, should I contact the council, the sheriff, the state's attorney?

 

You can tell the difference between a kid with a problem and a kid with some exuberence a mile away. Ruin the kid's day, but not his teen years for pete's sake. These Male Soccer Moms have outlawed butter knives and Gi Joes, but have they ever thought the problem could have started when they allowed their sons to wear black lipstick and pierce their noses.

[Twocubdad]

TP, I agree with you over the stupidity of the zero tolerence rules a which have good kids expelled for bringing a plastic knife to school with their lunch or giving an aspirin to a friend with a headache. But don't let your distain for the examples of stupidity blind you to the seriousness of this situation.

 

This wasn't a hollow "I'm going to kill you" kind of threat. This was a 15-year-old in a leadership position pulling a knife and threatening a younger Scout with it. If you feel that this was just an example of youthful exuberence, what would the kid have to have done for you to have considered it a serious threat?

[LovetoCamp]

tcd,

 

I guess I'd have to be in the shoes, before making a call like this. If we just have "stupid" than we can fix it. If we have Ted Bundy, then we act accordingly.

 

P

[Bob White]

A question Trail Pounder You are wlking in the woods when a tennegaer with a knife jumps in front of you and says "if you take another step I am going to kill you". At what point does he cross the line from stupid to murderer (Ted Bundy), isn't it the point at which you are dead? So once we "act accordingly" do you then become less dead?

 

The fact that the scout was not injured does not diminish the olderscouts threat of injury. It was a violation of the Guide to Safe Scouting and the Values of the Oath and Law. It was stupid, serious and unscout-like. I would have sent him home.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

Guess it depends on the intent. Let me share a story.

 

One year at summer camp, a Scout in my Troop(I don't own the Troop just a saying)had some problems the day after parents night (Thursday). During his weather merit badge his verbage got the best of him. The area director has a cuss cup for such situations and this Scout ran up an $8 bill in 10 minutes at $0.25 a word. And to further top things, he was at the rifle range & took brass off the range. Taking brass off the range is an offense which the camp, not unit, will send a Scout home. I was informed of the foul language 1st. I suggested this Scout apologize to all the Scout, Scouters & staff present during his foul language. This would be done the next day prior to his weather merit badge class. Then the range director came to my tent & told me what happened there. I sensed this Scout wanted to go home & was trying his hardest to get sent there. I talked to the range director & expressed my feelings & asked that he NOT send this Scout home. He agreed & also agreed that this Scout would spend all day Friday at the range cleaning up & doing whatever the range director needed. To sum this all up, this Scout apologized to all present for his poor language & was a gofer for the range director for an entire day. Four months ago, this Scout earned his Eagle. Had I agreed to have this Scouts sent home, he might have quit & never fully realized his potential.

 

The reason I share this. We need to be careful. While there are rules and they should be enforced we need to look at the violators & try to determine their intent. In the case of the 11 yr old with the knife, I feel it was handleed well. The case of the 15 yr old with the knife is completely different! His intent was different!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[LovetoCamp]

Bob White, in that scenario, you would be sending me home, and I'd be checking my liability insurance. P

 

(relax Bob, I'm joking, can't you tell.)

[acco40]

pardon my studpidity, but what in tarnation does the folowing mean: "These Male Soccer Moms have outlawed butter knives and Gi Joes, but have they ever thought the problem could have started when they allowed their sons to wear black lipstick and pierce their noses."

 

I'm at a total loss in try to understand the above.

[dan]

I took it to mean that its all the moms fault. The ones that stay home to run the kids here and there. And they most likly work harder than some "working moms" And its never the Dads fault. So at the point I quit reading his post.

[LovetoCamp]

I get misunderstood a lot, I get rambling and mount up on my high horse and everything gets garbled in transmission. I'll probably never be known as The Great Communicator, but I sure love to fish!