Scout flashes knife at another at summer camp

[jerryz]

During summer camp last week, one of our new scouts jumped out from behind a tree at night flashing a knife at another new scout, who was understandably terrified. The scout with the knife, the son of one of our ASM's, had previously earned his totin' chip. After initially denying that he had a knife, he later admitted that he did, and that the whole incident was just a joke, intended to "scare" the other scout. This boy has attention deficit disorder and memory problems, but is not under medication. He has been seeing a qualified psychologist for several years for this problem, however. He showed remorse for his immature actions and apologized to the other scout, who was still very shaken up. The scout's knife and totin chip were immediately taken away and he was told that further action would be taken upon our return home.

 

Upon returning home, the parents of the scout who was "surprised" were called to inform them of this incident. They were outraged and were surprised that the incident was not reported to police. They expressed concern that they could ever trust us to take their son anywhere again. They believe the offending scout, whom they believe to be a lunatic should be kicked out of the troop since he is a bad influence on the others. They have agreed to a meeting to discuss this situation.

 

At this point, I intend to meet with the parents, along with the offending scout's father (ASM) and another ASM. I do not plan to dismiss the scout from the troop, since I believe he did not intend to harm and was immature. I do plan to discipline him in some way and hopefully use this incident as a learning experience.

 

What advice/action would you take in this situation.

(This message has been edited by jerryz)

 

 

 

[Laurie]

I've no experience with this, but my first thought was to remove the knife and totin' chip from him immediately. I'm glad you did that. It certainly seems appropriate.

 

As to what to do next. Do you have a policy regarding discipline? Our troop had adopted a policy in writing, with verbal warnings, then written warnings, then meetings with the parent(s) and scout, then removal for a period of time. However, depending upon the severity of the problem, the issue may warrant more severe consequences more quickly. ie Beating up a fellow scout (physical harm has been done) would be more serious than speaking disrespectfully (which could be harmful but often is not--though it's wrong).

 

As a parent (a mom to boot--as moms I know we tend to be overprotective), I believe the parents of the surprises scouts have valid concerns. It is not your leadership that is being called into question, but rather the continued participation of a boy who posed a threat.

 

I look forward to what others say--this is a great place for info. Please keep us updated, and I'm terribly sorry for this experience in your troop.

[Eamonn]

Have to admit that I have never had to deal with anything like this.

However a friend of mine who was working at summer camp as a commissioner, was surprised to find that a boy from the Troop in which he serves as an ASM,had done much the same thing.

Only in their case the boy with the knife was upset.

The Troop committee met and suspended the boy. They asked the parent to send the boy for professional counseling and would not allow him to return till the counselor send them a letter, giving the Lad a green light.

This seemed to keep everyone happy.

The boy with the knife, is still in the program and I last seen him working on Staff at summer camp. The other Lad is also in the program and still in the same troop.

[mk9750]

Very tough situation. We had a similiar incident a month or two back, but with some intriguing twists. One of the freindliest, least agressive kids in our Troop (I'll call him Pete), during a game of capture the flag, pulled out his knife and told the boy he was guarding (let's call him Joe) that he was not to leave. He didn't brandish it at the boy, and, according to all of the boys who were witness to the incident, this was done with a smile on his face, and it was obvious to everyone that it was done as a joke and no harm was meant. Joe appeared to accept it that way until later, when the Pete's best friend yelled at Joe for not doing KP when he was supposed to. At that point, he told Joe's friend he was going to tell his parents about the knife incident.

 

We all know that no matter what the circumstances, Pete acted inappropriately, and he was spoken to about this, and his totin' chit was taken. For this boy, it was a learning experience, and he now knows that even if no harm is meant, bad things can happen. Our SPL did a wonderful job, I think, taching this leasson to the boy. I was very proud.

 

Our problem is with Joe's parents. Dispite hearing all of the accounts from the boys who witnessed the event, they want flesh. And in some small way, I think they are entitled to it. Even though Joe knew at the time that he was not really being threatened, and only told his parents to exact revenge over the KP, his parents do have a right to expect that their son is safe when at a Scout event. I don't believe the SPL has any plans to do anything more, and I know the SM backs that decision. But at least in this case, justice can't be served. the offense doesn't warrant any tougher punishment than already given, but it isn't enough to make the parents happy.

 

In your case, if it were me, I would ask one of the parents to come along on the next campout or two. I'd hope that they see that this was an isolated incident that is not going to be repeated, and let him know what steps you take with the offender. And certainly, an actual apoligy will go a long way toward making all feel ike Scouting brothers again.

 

Mark

[acco40]

These days, for many of the youth, the first exposure to a knife is from Scouting. A totin' chip card is earned. Many have the capacity to earn the card but not the maturity to follow the guidelines. Once earned, I don't believe it should be taken away. Does anyone remove the rank badges of a Scout who does not show scout spirit? As SM, I do reserve the right to forbid a Scout from carrying a knife. That may seem like a small technicality (banning the knife vs. taking the totin' chip card) but I feel their is a definite distinction between the two.

 

At a winter outing where the troop stayed in a rustic cabin, one of the Scouts carved our troop numerals into the cabin exterior (barely noticeable). I asked the SPL to muster the troop and I calmly asked if any Scout would like to step forward and claim responsibility. I had a good idea of the culprit but did not accuse anyone. Several of the boys started to point fingers but I had none of it. When I gave all a second chance to step forward and none did, no knives were allowed for the next two outings.

 

In a slightly more humorous note a unique incident happened at summer camp last year. A boy attending his first summer camp (three months with the troop) was taking the wood (finger) carving merit badge. He had just earned his totin' chip and sat down on the picnic table to work on his carving. He proceeded to pull out his knife and quickly move his arm in a half circle telling everyone to "get out of the way." I immediately told him not to do that but he told me that is what his MB counselor told him to do! He interpreted making sure everyone was out of arms reach as to wave the knife forcing everyone to back off! I gave him a slight re-education on the topic and no other problems occurred.

 

As a SM, if I felt a particular Scout was a hazard or threat to the other boys by possessing a knife, I would simply not let the boy possess a knife, not remove him from the troop.

 

As a footnote, the ax yard, IMO, is the scariest place in the world. At the ages of 12 - 16, the boys are growing at an alarming rate and their maturity and judgement are not quite up to their physical strength. I normally do not set up an ax yard unless absolutely necessary.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[bt01]

It sounds like you are dealing with the problem. I am going to add some of my ideas. At the next troop meeting, disscuss with the scouts the proper way to use knives. Stress to the scouts theat knives should not be used as weapons. At the same time till them when using any sharp object that there in son fooling around.

 

BT

[Twocubdad]

Sounds like you have a reasonable plan, Jerry. I would only add some sort of meaningful punishment/retraining for the offending boy. Maybe he gets to teach knife safety to the new Scout patrol, or something similar. This kind of behavior is covered in the Guide to Safe Scouting as part of the Scouts' responsibilities. You may want to address it from that respect.

 

As to the other boy's parents, they are going to do what they are going to do. If they want to over react, they will. I would let the rest of the troop leadership know how the situation has been handled in case rumor mill gets hold of it.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Fat Old Guy]

We're faced with a couple of problems here. First we have, as someone else pointed out, Scouts who may have never had or carried a knife before they go to Scout camp. When someone has a new item, he tends to play with it or show it off. Think of what guys do when they first start driving, they drive past the houses of their buddies to show them that they are driving. The same is true of knives, fancy pens, or cell phones; you need to carry one for a while before you get past the infatuation stage.

 

The other problem is that too many people today (the parents in question are good examples) want every transgression punished with Draconian measures. Get into a fight and you need to be expelled from school. Sneak a beer from the fridge and someone needs to go to jail. It is rather frightening.

 

The kid showed a lapse in judgement. It could have turned out badly but it didn't. Should it be forgotten? No. The Scout needs to think about his actions and especially about how a tragedy might have occurred. He needs to explain these things to the SM, the other Scout, and the other Scout's parents. Unless a pattern has been shown, nothing else should be done.

 

"Wait a minute" some will shout, "something bad could have happened." True but we can't punish people for what didn't happen even though that is the way that our society is going. I can't carry my pocket knife on a plane anymore because of something that might happen. The government monitors large cash transactions because you might be a drug dealer.

 

The parents need to accept the SM's judgement. If they don't like it, they are free to take their son elsewhere.

[Bob White]

A difficult situation Jerry, I think how you handled things in the first paragraph was very appropriate. And I agree that further action needs to be taken. My only advice is that you not be involved beyond this point. Punishment is the responsibility of the parents and the troop committee. Let them resolve this issue, do not put yourself in the middle of the situation. Your primary role is training junior leaders, get back to that.

 

You may already be doing this but in case you are not, I recommend that you stress the "Tools Not Toys" concept when teaching skills such as ropework, woods tools, and water activities. Let the scouts know from the outset that misused objects can quickly become weapons whether we intended them to be or not. And that misuse of these tools will result in loss of priviledges, or possibly removal from the program. They need to understand that scouting is serious about this.

 

As far as "we can't punish kids for what didn't happen." Of course we can. Intent has been a crime for centuries, all the way back to the Ten Commandments. Coveting is a crime of intention, so is assault. You do not need to wait for the injury to take place to know that a behavior is inherently dangerous or illegal.

 

Turn this over to the parents and the troop committee and get back to working with the scouts.

 

Good Luck,

Bob White

[acco40]

Bob,

 

I tend to agree with most of your comments above except for the "covet" issue. Coveting is not a crime. "Crime" is a legal term (as is murder). That is why some phrases such as "abortion is murder" and "coveting is a crime" are untrue. Both actions may be sinful, immoral, etc. but under most circumstances, they are not crimes.

[saltheart]

I think Bob said it quite succinctly. Now is your time to remove yourself from the process and allow it to move forward without you under the guidance of the committee and the parents.

 

The only commentary that I might add is that in circumstances where consequences for actions (aka: punishment) is the subject of discussion, the 'walking of the knifes edge' part of that discussion is setting an example for the future without mixed signals or even the remotest possibility of more than one interpretation of the final dictate. It's tough. Whatever consequences for actions the committee sets forth in this particular situation, it will be a tough but necessary part that the final dictate say to both Scouts and parents of Scouts that 'This is what will happen should anything like this occassion rise again'. No if's, and's, or but's. No questions, no deviations, no other interpretations. Ever...

 

It is, of course, necessary that each and every incident (hopefully few) be treated individually and with the utmost regard for the situation and the facts. But the example set for consequences for ones actions must be unequivocal. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Having been there once (fireworks and explosives, not knives), I sympathize. Good luck. I'm certain the road may be bumpy. But it sounds like you are, and have been, up to the challenge.

[Hunt]

I don't know if this is off-topic, but I wanted to comment on the story about banning knives for all Scouts for two outings because the guilty party didn't admit carving on the cabin. I question this kind of collective punishment (which I see a lot in the schools) because I think it sends the message that you're going to get punished no matter how good you are. The kids who are constantly causing trouble don't seem bothered by it, so I don't think it really works in creating peer pressure, either. I know whenever this happens to my kids, their complaint is with the injustice of the group punishment more than with the kid who caused it.

[Fat Old Guy]

Hey Bob White, the Ten Commandments cover sins not crimes. Big difference unless you live in Iran.

 

By the way, assault is not a crime of intent, it is a crime of deed. The deed is making a threat and causing the other person to fear for his safety.

 

I suppose that you're in favor of the cops monitoring your thoughts. "Mr. White, you had intended to break the speed limit because you're late for work so we're writing you a citation."

 

[Fat Old Guy]

It doesn't work with your son's group because they aren't really a team. Back when I was younger, faster, and stronger and the coach would make us run extra laps because someone had been dogging it, we blamed the loafer not the coach and took steps to make sure that it didn't happen again.

 

Teams succeed together and they fail together.

 

Remember when Roberto Alomar spat on the umpire. The cry was, "Don't punish his team, let him play in the playoffs." Bull.

[Bob White]

The reference to the ten Commandments was a historical one to show that intent was even considered in God's Laws to Moses.

 

"By the way, assault is not a crime of intent, it is a crime of deed. The deed is making a threat and causing the other person to fear for his safety."

 

Like when "During summer camp last week, one of our new scouts jumped out from behind a tree at night flashing a knife at another new scout, who was understandably terrified."

 

 

 

Bob White