Cub Scouts - boys too old, but at risk

[TexasAkela161]

I have a similar issue with having a new group of 3 boys that have begun to visit our Pack. Each of these boys are 11 years old, and obviously should be introduced into a troop to be ready for the fall. The problem, however, is that each of these boys come from lower income single parent dysfunctional homes, and in 2 cases, are high-risk and have even had run-ins with the law. The only reason they have been attending our webelos meetings, is that one of the boy's grandmothers attends a church meeting on the same night as ours. We have had a talk with the grandmother, and she says that there is no other way to get them to any other location on any other night. These boys have been a bit of a discipline problem in the few weeks that they have been coming as well. And I don't think we have the remotest shot at parental involvement. Up until this point, I have had the pleasure and easy job of dealing with almost non-existant behavioral problems, and a phenomenal supporting cast of eager and helpful parents. I know this situation is probably a no-brainer, but I feel that this may be the only shot we have at reaching these boys. Obviously I wouldn't let it get so far that trying to help these guys would ruin the program for the rest of the boys. But I just can't see letting these boys (who definitely need it the most) fall through the cracks.

 

so to sum it up,

A) They're probably too old for our pack and should be in a troop (Which I fear may never happen)

B) They have no background of discipline and have been disruptive(Which scouts is DEFINITELY a remedy for)

C) Not to mention that I have no idea how we are going to get these boys legitimately registered!! (we have the ability to scholarship, but have had no experience with drop-off kids and the parents appear to just not care!)

 

Sorry this was long and rambling, but any HELP(!!!) at all would be appreciated!!!!! I will be bringing this up at my district roundtable as well for solutions.

[Bob White]

These boys are too old to register in Cub Scouting At age 11 they need to be in Boy Scouts. Be straight forward with the parents amd guardians these boys are too old to participate in cub scouts and should not be in attendance at the meetings. Better yet give the contact information to the troop and have them contact the parents and give them the good news.

[red feather]

ditto with Bob. Other than that scouting would be a geat outlet for these boys if they can hook up with a good troop. No easy answers. Just hope and luck. Also welcome to the campfire, search the other threads for maybe an insite and keep coming back and let us know how it all goes. Remember that the forum is here to help if we can.

 

yis

[TexasAkela161]

and as a follow-up,

would it be against the rules or otherwise inadvisable to let them attend our meetings FOR A SHORT TIME (Stressed) as open-ended guests. To make sure the seed of scouting is planted, and to keep them off the streets? As long as they follow our rules. I am just so frightened at the prospect of losing any boy.

I'm normally a very by-the-book leader. But have never faced having to turn away anyone. (I know, I know, I should have faith that we WILL get these boys in a troop!!)

[dsteele]

Welcome, Texas. It's time to think outside the box and yet, still fit within it.

 

Is there leadership available for these three boys? By that I mean "others" and not necessarily parents. You say there is little chance of parental involvement, and I'll buy that for the moment.

 

You should talk to your professional staff. I would advise you to use leadership you have through your church or pack to register these boys as a troop. Yes, you need 5 boys to charter a new unit, but it can be done with less than that if your Scout Executive is willing to write a letter to national stating that there aren't any more boys to serve or that efforts to recruit more have proven fruitless. I've done it before, but always reluctantly.

 

It's an obscure option, but could work. Just make sure the boys are receiving the best program you can and that it is viable down the road. It's better than having 11 year old Cub Scouts.

 

DS

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

Call your DE and ask if there is a troop these boys would fit in. We had a local troop that would take these boys, but it was not well known to the general public. A Troop like that may be waiting for your call.

 

Barry

[sctmom]

First let me congralute you on trying to help these boys.

 

I think you have another avenue here -- the Church. If the grandmother is attending a church meeting, sounds like she is a member of this church. Also, you are meeting at this church so they must have some interest in youth. Approach the someone at the church and tell them of the situation. Does the church have a troop? Could someone start a troop that meets on the same night as your group? (that makes it easy for grandma and benefits your Webelos)

Does the church have a youth outreach program - officially or unofficially? I would bet somebody at that church would help you.

 

Best of luck and thanks again for caring about our youth.

 

[scoutldr]

Let the boys lead...be honest and explain the situation to them. Tell them you need 3 more of their friends to form a Troop and challenge them to make it happen. Then help THEM find a leader. It could be the most challenging and rewarding thing you will do...and this is where the rubber meets the road.

[mama_bear]

I applaud your passion and refusal to simply pass the buck.

 

I agree with scoutldr. I agree these boys would be better served in a troop but I think you have to be careful how you tread from there. The most important thing is that there must be some interest on behalf of these boys in scouting. (Remember you can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink.) If these 3 scouts come from a turbulent background, behavioral issues in a structured environment are to be expected. But scouting may later serve as one of the most important gifts you can offer them. In the right environment, I think anyone can blossom. Before speaking to the grandmother or boys I would Contact District about other troops or even speak to the Scoutmaster for your pack. I would inquire to the possibility of forming another troop, if you could have these 3 boys each recruit a friend. Perhaps there are more boys from the church group who would be interested in joining. I would also have an honest talk with the scoutmaster regarding their needs and interest. I would see if anyone knew of any possible leaders who are used to dealing with boys with these special needs. You would be surprised what you could learn if you just inquire. Maybe there is a strong male or parent involved in the Pack or church that has similar backgrounds or upbringings.

 

Then once I was armed with all the arsenal I could uncover, I would sit down with the 3 boys and their guardians and a representative from the troop and explain to them the differences between cubscouts and boyscouts. I would present it in such a way that the boys wouldn't think that you were just passing them off or abandoning them.

 

You have been placed in a difficult but rewarding position. That is to place the passion of scouting into these boys. It may give them the solid foundation, everlasting camaraderie and discipline they need to become men with goals, ambition and direction. Pass the torch wisely!(This message has been edited by mama_bear)

[Laurie]

We have a different but similar problem. First, though, in response to:

 

"Obviously I wouldn't let it get so far that trying to help these guys would ruin the program for the rest of the boys. But I just can't see letting these boys (who definitely need it the most) fall through the cracks."

 

I commend that. However, in our situation, the "good" boys don't appear to need scouting as much as the "bad" one--I'll get to that But, in knowing these so-called good boys (I hate labels), one important thing to note here is that these boys don't do well in many other areas outside of Cubs. In fact, they are like different kids. You know your kids; our kids are good in Cubs, but it's their best place to be.

 

Now, the so-called "bad" boy. ...sigh... I love Cubs, love Scouting, love everything about all of it until this particular boy entered the picture. The den leader thinks he is mean if he corrects him; the assistant den leader thinks it's ok and just typical boy behavior; the mother is told what to do by her son and simply does it. This boy has a foul mouth, has contempt for all women (oh the comments!), bucks authority consistently, and doesn't seem interested in being at the den. His sole purpose is to gain an audience, and he does. He then gets the other boys distracted, and the once pleasant meetings are now rough. I'm there as a mom and to assist with paperwork (the busy stuff that would keep the leaders from being involved with the boys). I also happen to be the Assistant Cubmaster.

 

Any advice? He is 10, is coming into Webelos I (he just completed 3rd grade), and he was allowed to bring a friend who is 11 and apparently just finished fifth grade. This is into a Webelos I den. I am of the opinion (but new to Scouts) that the 2nd boy is simply too old for Cubs, but also of the opinion that somehow something needs to be done about that first boy.

 

Thanks in advance, if you're still with me

 

[evmori]

Laurie,

1st of all welcome to the campfire. There's a lot of great info and help here.

 

Now to your situation, if this "problem" child is coming into your Webelos den you set the rules. Not mom & not your assistant. You. I would tailor the rules to make sure if this kid crosses the line there are consequences for his action or words. I have never nor will I ever put up wiht foul language from my Scouts. I will even correct them when they say "Oh my G--". In my opinion, there is no reason for this behavior. I know these are the kind of kids who need the program but you can't sacrifice the den for one Scout.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

Laurie,

 

Scouting is meant to reach kids thru positive motivation. But sometimes, kids will push the envelope and do thinks that are just flat out unacceptable and sometimes you have to put you foot down. Especially if they are influencing the other boys behavior. This boy and his mother needs to be told in plain and simple language that those words and attitudes are not acceptable in scouting and he will not be allowed to act that way at scouting events. Tell him that if he persists, he will not be allowed to attend and stick to it. Yes, try to reach out to him and work with him and even cut him a little slack in hopes that there will be long term benefits. But, if he can not behave and disrupts others and continues in that vein, he can't come back until he behaves. He obviously has no boundaries at home and probably will respond to them elsewhere if someone will just expect it of him. I have a nephew that is spoiled rotten by his mother and shows little respect to her. He has an aunt that won't put up with it and guess what, he does not act like that when he is with her. He needs to know the limits and you have to stick to them and carry out the consequences.

[Laurie]

Thank you for the welcome Ed

 

I am not the den leader, and that is why I do not do anything except:

 

Encourage the den leader as often as possible (that's easy--he's a good leader), let him know that my son is expected to behave and that he has my support if he doesn't (don't hesitate to correct and don't hesitate to talk to me about it). As Assistant Cubmaster, which I have been only since our Pack pretty much broke up for the summer, I'm not sure how to help him. We (all leaders but the Cubmaster) are untrained, though I was able to take the BALOO course and loved it. That enabled me to talk up training. I've been to 2 Round Tables, and I was able to talk them up so much that we had 4 leaders going--only to learn it had come to a close for the summer. I'm wondering off the topic, but not too far off: I think many of our problems, including this boy (and I do not exaggerate--he's a tough cookie), could be solved if we were properly trained to understand the program and how to implement it in the best possible way.

 

So, for now, since I'm not the den leader, but am in a leadership position, do you have further ideas on how I can help this den leader? He really doesn't like to deal with discipline--things he's a meanie--but as he and his family and me and my family have become friends, he doesn't hesitate now to correct my son. But others...that's a different story.

 

kwc57--thank you too! I appreciate the advice here. You are right; he has no boundaries. However, though I've gently talked mom-to-mom with his mother about the "trials and tribulations" of raising kids , it has become clear to me that we won't have her support. I feel sorry for her, but her son is very disruptive, and he has begun to lead the other boys. My son looked confused at the last meeting (while I was doing paperwork with one eye and watching with the other), and as things escalated, I simply walked over to him, put my arm around his shoulder, and recruited his help. The leaders had become distracted by arriving parents at the closing, and that is why they missed this particular episode.

 

I continue to welcome all advice. I love our leaders, all of them, and they know it. How do I support them in issues such as this? Or is this just my place?

[ScoutNut]

You say that this boy was allowed to bring a friend who was 11 and entering 6th grade. Allowed by who? Bring him where? Did he just visit a 4th grade Webelos meeting or was he registered with your Pack as a Webelos?

 

A den meeting is not like a pick up game of basketball. You don't just bring along friends unless it is to check out the Den & Pack for the purpose of joining. Your den leaders are responsible for EVERYONE at their den meetings. The people who are registered and involved with BSA are covered by the insurance. The 11 year old friend is not. There is also no possible way he can join Cub Scouts. Since he is both 11 years old and finished with 5th grade he does not meet the joining requirements. He CAN join a Boy Scout Troop, but NOT a Cub Scout Pack.

 

As for the bad behaviour and influences, here is a direct quote from BSA Youth Protection :

 

"All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout membership in the unit. Units should consult with the parents of members who fail to meet behavior standards."

 

"Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents or misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit.

 

If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action."

 

This pretty clearly tells you that you should not put up with this kind of behaviour. As a den parent and especially as Asst Cubmaster you should let your den leader know that something must be done.

 

Good Luck

[Laurie]

ScoutNut--thank you so much! You've pointed out yet another reason we need training: you have pointed me to info that we should already have knowledge of. I will look that up and print it out and pass it on to our pack.

 

The 11-yr-old, despite my questioning his eligibility, was allowed not only to come along but also to register. The Cubmaster and Committee agreed on this, though I was not sure and went by what the one trained one among us told us. So, the app and money was accepted, the boy is now considered a new Webelo, and he--though age is an issue--is not a problem otherwise. He first showed up at a Bear Den meeting (we have not and do not graduate our boys) this summer, and he then joined. His own parent(s) did not even pay his way; his friend's mother did (the problem kid). To be fair to the Cubmaster and Committee, it only just came to our attention that this boy is older than we were told.

 

We have a charter rep in name only, and we have a committee chair in the same boat as me--new and untrained. Would this be something we should run by the DE? It seems to be an issue that you and others are in agreement on that we must do something about. I have no hesitation bringing it up to the Committee (which is the Cubmaster, Chairman, me as Asst Cubmaster, and the den leaders at this point), and I also have a good relationship with our DE.

 

I am frustrated, so please forgive me if that shows in this post. It is certainly not directed toward anyone here, but rather the situations. TIA!(This message has been edited by Laurie)