Not sure if this is the right place, but hi anyway!

[Penta]

So, I'm not sure if I necessarily belong here, but I stumbled upon this site while covering the internet in curiosity (I forget about what) and seem drawn to reading it.

 

Before I go on, though, I should introduce myself.

 

I'm John Penta. I'm 26, from New Jersey. My scouting experience? I was a Cub Scout the whole way through, from Tiger Cubs all the way to crossing over from pack to my boy scout troop, but dropped out within 8-12 months of crossing over.

 

My perspective on Scouting, thus, is a bit weird. I'm disabled - have been since birth (I'll elaborate if asked, but, for brevity, I would describe it as a cocktail of physical issues - from motor skills to visual issues - that have also bred mental health issues) - and when I crossed over from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts when I was 11 or so, the very notion of alternative requirements was just being noted as "something the Boy Scouts might allow". I want to say they came out that year, but I could be wrong. Looking back, I remember being very insistent that I wasn't going to do any such thing unless I had to, being the kind of kid that: A. Was mainstreamed in school for everything but gym class, and had a sense of dignity that was kind of offended by the idea; B. Intended fully to get Eagle (or get as close as I could) without any "special help" or any reason to "asterisk" it; C. Hated ever being identified as disabled...And then I remember my frustration with the requirements regarding hiking and the ^%$#@ square knot (No, I couldn't tie my shoes - no, I still can't; Yes, this still humiliates me and drives me nuts.) being the direct reason why I quit Scouting. (There where a whole host of indirect reasons, looking back - including the fact that the troop, I can see with some distance, really wasn't all that accepting of people who were different (let alone as different as a disabled kid!), though I think it might be fair to mention that none of the other nearby troops were any better on that score.) I was, as you might imagine, humiliated by that, and I did my best to forget about my Scouting experience for a time. I kept the handbook, I used it for miscellaneous reference for years til I lost it; I even kept my uniform from back then hanging in my closet til I went off to college. (It was always something...challenging me, mocking me, almost.)

 

And I guess I still am interested. I might never be lucky enough to have kids or be a leader in scouting, but I won't deny I have opinions and thoughts, from my own perspective, on the issues which seem to pop up. They may be less qualified than most, but eh.

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

Welcome to the forums!

 

Speaking only for myself, I feel that there is plenty of room on this forum for your point of view, especially as regards disabled or differently abled scouts.

 

I'm sorry you were did not get the full benefit of the scouting program as a youth, but I'm glad to see that you seem to have come to terms with it without bearing any grudges.

 

Regards,

DWS

 

[Penta]

Grudges were never my style. Nah, the only grudge I have on this account is against the square knot.

[moosetracker]

Welcome John,

 

I had a nice long writing, but the send didn't work right, and I lost the whole thing. Don't have patients to type the whole thing in. I don't have patience to type it all pretty again. So unfortunatly you get the condensed version.

 

1) Everyone is welcome. Come and join the forums. You may learn how to re-enter the scouting world in a capacity that is perfect for you. From your writing I can tell you are a very intellegent person. Scouting needs all types of people with all types of skills. I can't tie a knot to save my life either..

 

2) we had a disabled scout in our troop. the mother was no help either, she would tell him he couldn't do things and even would tell him he was stupid. The leaders would move her away to try to work with the scout, but we are all volunteers without professional training, our headway was slow and this frustrated not only the scout, but the adult leaders. One leader went to a weekend BSA training on how to work with handicap scouts. It was wonderful, she came back and got the scout to open up. She taught other leaders the right and wrong way to motivate him. All frustration was gone. Then the mother took him out for a petty reason. We think she was not happy we were succeeding, she really wanted him to be very dependent on her.

Anyway frustration can go both ways. It is not because other people do not want to help, but just don't know how to help.

[Scoutfish]

Welcome! All ideas and opinions...especially all experiences are always relevant.

 

I hate that yours was the way it was, but with your personal experience and especially your unique insight into this... hopefully we can create a better program as we go.

 

Luckily, times are changing for the better. Used to be a time when epilepsy was considered having a fit that the individual could control.

Thank goodness we now know better.

 

 

All opinions and thoughts are welcome, but I feel yours will carry more weight in many ways!

[Penta]

Scoutfish: It was what it was. It's been years, I can look back on it with some distance.

 

Moose: Oh, yeah. You're in part speaking of the passage of time, something that has not gone unnoticed by me, either. 15 years ago, I don't know if special-needs kids would have been accepted in *any* troop, in my council or any others. (By accepted: Sure, they would be signed up. But *really* accepted? I never would presume the boys in any troop would accept a disabled scout, and 15 years ago, while it never happened to me, I would (in retrospect) have been totally unsurprised if there was resistance from the adults, too.) 15 years ago, certainly, even where there was acceptance in principle, there was basically no knowledge. (I'm not sure which applied to my former troop. My dad, when I discussed it a few days ago, seemed to have the attitude no knowledge would have helped, past a certain point.) That, certainly from reading this forum, does not appear the case today.

 

Now, that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with how BSA appears to be handling special-needs scouts. I'm still a huge believer that kids with disabilities should be integrated to the maximum extent with a standard troop if it's at all possible - Yes, it will be awkward. The kids won't know how to react, and the parents...I'll be totally honest, the parents would be worse in my experience. Most parents, they encounter a disabled kid and, let's be honest: One of the *first* thoughts that goes through their mind, like it or not, is likely something along the lines of "Thank God that's not my kid". A disabled kid in their Scout troop or pack will throw even the parents who think they're really tolerant for a loop.

 

But I don't think "special-needs troops", as I understand the concept (which is to say, a troop specifically for Scouts with any sort of disability), can escape the problem of the kids with special needs standing out purely *because* of the disabilities (and likely being something of a freak show to "regular" troops at events with both, let's be honest). I'm not a fan of "inclusive language" or "person-focused" language. I'm not "visually impaired" or "a person with a visual impairment", I'm blind. I may be able to read print, but I'm still blind. It's a matter-of-fact thing with me, as it would be for 90-99% of Scouts with disabilities - it's a good chance that, like me, they've had their disabilities since birth or shortly thereafter. They don't know what it's like *not* to be disabled...But if I'm any example, they know they are more than "different", they are in fact disabled, and pretending otherwise is just lying to them. It's not even a good lie.

 

How do the two or three things in that paragraph tie together? Perspective. The language thing is a pet peeve, yes, because it tries to create a myth that the disability doesn't matter. Special-needs troops seem like the same thing; They're certainly appropriate for kids with especially severe disabilities, but I don't believe they should be the default solution. (I'm not unwilling to be realistic, and say that there might be kids "too disabled for Scouting", and acknowledge that that may have described me. (In which case I do wish people had been honest and said that at the time, rather than letting me bash my head against the wall.) It would pain me to *ever* say a kid is too disabled for Scouting, or too disabled for a regular unit, but if that's the honest evaluation of SMs or others, they owe it, IMHO, to voice that to the kid. It's hard, very hard (having been on either side of such a discussion in other contexts), but part of actually *living* with a disability is to accept that, yes, some things are not going to happen for you, and I think any adult owes a kid with a disability the *honesty* of sometimes being the voice that realistically evaluates the situation. You could be wrong, the kid could find another unit that can handle them, but that will not be all units.)

 

The reason I say Special Needs Troops should be the last ditch exception is because, from where I sit, they risk doing the same thing the Disabilities Awareness pin in Cub Scouts, as I've seen it described, would seem likely to do: Mark out disabled kids for pity, or (possibly worse) feed the "Eric Weihenmeyer Syndrome" (My own nickname for the idea that disability isn't a handicap - after the blind guy who climbed Everest and has since become the most annoying motivational speaker ever).

 

More important to me is *humanizing* disabilities...Presenting it to the kids as "Yeah, he's blind/deaf/in a wheelchair/autistic. Your point is?"

 

I think what kids (of CS age particularly, but also of Boy Scout age) need to learn re disabilities is: It is. You cannot know all or even most of what it's like to, say, be blind by going around in sleep shades for a day (Though if you've never done *that* with kids, I recommend it - your state's disability services agency can provide can provide canes they can use (you don't get a guide dog til, at minimum, 18, sorry kids!) - it *has* opened eyes); On the other hand, most disabled kids would be totally lost if they were to wake up able-bodied. Even if, like I am, you're a skeptic of the idea of disabled people having a unique culture, there's no doubting it shapes your identity. Spare your pity or sympathy - most kids with disabilities hate that from an early age. Instead? Try honestly including them. (When you get past the shell most kids with disabilities build up (by the time they enter school, even), to say nothing of the weird sense of humor, they can sometimes be desperate for an honest friendship with someone, to the point that the tiniest things can go a long way - and if you actually connect, it's like witnessing a miracle.)

 

Maybe, for example, the blind kid can't safely *play* football, but with good descriptions? The best "field sense" and strategic mind for the game I have ever seen...Was possessed by a kid who was even more blind than I am, who was totally blind.

 

Point is, the kids need to learn...The disability makes the other kid nothing special, no less human. Their dumber moments deserve no sympathy; ordinary competence shouldn't necessarily be trumpeted, either. (Though you would be forgiven if your jaw drops a bit more at the extraordinary moments; we all do that even if we should know better, not just "Wow, that kid did that", but "Wow, the kid did that, with disabilities too!") In my case: I may have swore at the square knot and the cerebral palsy/fine motor issues that made it impossible, but even if I couldn't hack it as a Scout, I wouldn't let other Scouts then think I was going to take the easy way out.

 

I'm not sure that can be done any other way than including kids with disabilities, as much as you can, until it feels weird for those Scouts *not* to be present.

 

None of this, though, should be taken to mean that I don't think Scouting in the US has come a *really* long way over even 15 years. It has - 15 years ago you would never imagine kids with autism or any kind of noticable disability in Scouting; beyond it being more difficult, they really don't fit the image those involved usually have of Scouts, and definitely didn't then. In that context, even the occasional Scout with a disability in a regular troop is something to applaud, even separate special-needs troops are a way forward.

 

I just don't think the job is done yet.

[moosetracker]

SoMy son is 19. When he started as a tiger, about 14 years ago we had a child in the den that was mentally disabled, our den thought the world of him. He had a hard time grasping things that required memorization, but he was very athletic and put his heart and soal into everything he did. The smile that would light up his face was wonderful.

 

When we crossed over half the den went to one troop, the other half went to the other. We chose the same troop as them, and we chose the wrong troop. The other boys of the den, dis-associated with him in order to fit in. My son would stay with him and be his tent mate and partner. My son, though not disabled, is a naturally slow mover, just plods along.. This boy was speedy, but mentally slow. This meant between them they were slower setting up their tents, taking them down or doing an activity.. They were both labled "not the right fit" for the troop. But, they weren't the only ones, this troop recruited about 30 boys a year due to the troop had amazing older boys involved. What you didn't realize is those older boys came to be by selecting about 10 of the new year's crop, and getting rid of the rest by neglecting them, making fun of them, making things more difficult for them etc. By the time the next cross-overs came for a visit they could model the perfect troop again.

 

Our family choose to leave before the family with the disabled boy, we tried to talk them into moving to the troop we were going to, but it was a longer drive. When I left I and the mother of another boy who was leaving with us, gave the troop leaders a piece of our minds.. I brought up the disabled boy, and how they were pushing him out by their actions. There comment was, "Well it really would be best if he did go..."

 

So yes you are right with some troops. But our Den & Pack did make an effort with this boy, and truely enjoyed him in the group. It really does depend on the Leaders of the unit, and how they teach their scouts how to work with and handle others with disabilities.

[Scoutfish]

I know a disability is all in the eye of the behoilder and also in how people view it.

Me, I had cancer surgery less that a year ago and do not quite have full use of my dominant arm.

 

As far as work goes..I have compensated where I could, and changed my way of doing things where I couldn't.

 

To me, a disability is a slight disadvantage that we can't control.

 

As leaders, friends , and just people, we need to look at everybody ..and we will see that everybody has a disability in some shape or form wether it's narrowminded vies, predjudice, ignorance, physical, .etc...

 

My son is allergic to nuts and fur.

Not really a big deal, except when everybody wanst PB&J sandwhiches. Doesn't matter to me, but sometimes my son feels like an oddball.

 

I have a Bear Scout nephew who can't eat in front of other people. He will literally throw up. Strange...but it is what it is.

 

My wife has a a small touch of OCD ( don't we all though... in reality?)

 

She can't camp , because ( I swear it's true) no matter where she is, the one bug in the woods will somehow climb in our tent, climb to the top and fall on her face while sleeping.

 

So, the biggest problem I see is that while trying to include the disabled scout, many good intentioned leaders and scouts accidentally draw bigger attention to the scouts disability.

 

Some may just be jerks, but most are actually good intentioned people who may not evenbe awarde that they drew that attention. Wh7y? Because they see things from a different perspective.

 

And that's where you just become a great and valuable asset to the program, to the scouts and to me.

 

Tell us what you feel, what you think, and how you see things from your vantage point and through your eyes!

 

I am limited( disadvantaged) to only seeing things through my eyes.

[jhankins]

First of all, welcome!

 

I work some of the advanced leadership training programs in my council. When I first attended Wood Badge, I met a 50 year old man that had been stricken with a fever when he was only 11 years old. He's permanently stuck with the mindset of an eight year old, and has seizure, balance, speech, fine and gross motor issues. I see him now at every event I attend. He's staffed Wood Badge 5 times now. He is a Vigil member of the OA. He even staffed Jamboree.

 

He earned his Eagle at the ripe young age of 35. He embodies scout spirit to me, and I always seek him out for a spiritual battery recharge.

 

But I also work with an Autistic boy. He has sensory and social issues. I've seen him grow from a boy that was too shy to even speak more than 10 words to a boy that now speaks in public and trains other boys in Leave No Trace. Every lesson he gives, every spoken word is something we cherish as leaders. We see that he's embodied the scouting spirit, and we can take pride in his accomplishments, too.

 

I'm sorry you had such a sour experience, but I hope you know that more and more boys are getting a chance to learn and do and find ways to enjoy the outdoors. Just look at this kid:

 

[AlamanceScouter]

Penta....welcome to the forum! It will be great to have your perspective!