Gotta Wonder

[adc294]

Terry...gotta tell ya... I'm an educated man but I have a hard time understanding just what good this particular sub-forum does. It appears to me that the it consists of pundits primarily. I have posted here, yes, but in retrospect believe that I was suckered into it thinking I was actually benefitting Scouting. I fear that this forum actually does more harm than good. I have flagelated (I am sure) in my thoughts posted here but have come to my senses now: I support Scouting as it was, not as some would like it to be, or even as it is in some cases now. I also support your right to censor persons or comments posted here.

[SR540Beaver]

LongHaul,

 

The guy in question was FOG (Fat Old Guy). He also had about 5 or 6 other names he used, sometimes responding to his own posts. He tried to hide his IP address by posting from his office and then going around the corner to the local library and signing on from there. There is a former poster that was a particular target of FOG. He figured out the former poster's real name and even registered an account here under that person's name. The poor guy had some real issues and Terry finally had to boot him.

 

ADC,

 

I don't intend to speak for Terry, but if you'll notice, he has very few posts here. He runs a business and evidently stays pretty busy, so you might not hear back from him soon. I believe he started this forum out of a love of scouting. If memory serves, he opened the issues and politics forum due to repeated requests from the folks who post here. Most posting pertains to scouting and program. Much of what you see in I&P relates to scouting too. No one is forced to go into that forum, read the threads or post.

 

Beavah,

 

My intent was not to justify the tone here by pointing out worse behavior elsewhere. It was merely to point out that it is a matter of perspective. What you find "bad" here, others like me who have participated in other forums on the internet finds to be a breath of fresh air. While tempers and tone may flair on occasion, many of us find Scouter to be a safe harbor in the internet storm.

[packsaddle]

Amen to that smackdown part! Heck, I can't resist...I have to remind everyone that what used to be called "Championship Wrestling" is what I now call "Redneck Ballet". I recently did this again...switch the channel to wrestling and turn the sound down all the way. Now put on some ballet music on the stereo. Tchaikovsky's 'Swan Lake' or 'Sleeping Beauty' work really well. For some reason, what you're watching makes more sense that way and the music is just great!

[adc294]

SR540,

 

I understand and agree. I'm getting old and forgot why I stopped using this forum once before. Thanks to all for reminding me. See ya on the trail...

 

Jake

[FScouter]

Terry...gotta tell ya... I'm an educated man but I have a hard time understanding just what good this particular sub-forum does.

 

The Issues & Politics forum was set up so that controversial topics with only a loose connection to Scouting, or non-Scouting topics could have a home. We moderators occasionally move topics out of this forum as needed so that forum participants dont have to peruse it looking for Scouting topics centered on advancement, uniforms, fundraising, and other topics with Scouting as the central theme. On the other hand, topics that center on religion, gays, politics, and non-Scouting topics get moved out of other forums.

 

Alternative points of views, even those presented in an emphatic manner are not discouraged in any forum. A minimum standard of decorum is expected in all forums and the Issues & Politics is not excepted. As the forum subtitle says, Those not interested can skip this forum instead of spending time reading unwanted messages to identify content.

[Trevorum]

Gonzo said, "... BSA has a list of 'acceptable' religions"

 

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.

 

 

 

BSA has no list of acceptable religions. BSA does not define what constitutes the practice of religion. It is true that some religions have developed programs for youth study and BSA has approved some of these medals for uniform wear, but this does not constitute any list of 'acceptable' religions. Please do not spread this spurious misinformation.

 

All religious faiths are equally accepted by BSA. Period.

[Gonzo1]

According to National's website, it says in part:

"Virtually every religion is represented in the Boy Scouts of America, from Catholics and Protestants, to the Armenian Church of America and Zoroastrians. The Religious Relationships Committee, which includes over 30 religious groups represented in Scouting, determines whether a religion is an appropriate partner for Scouting, and reviews any duty to God material which is to be used in Scouting for consistency with Boy Scout policies."

 

I must believe that wicca, witchcraft, paganism, maybe some other isms out there are "unacceptable".

 

A phone call to national in the morning will help clarify this. I will post my findings tomorrow.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Gonzo1, When I compare the paragraphs you brought to us to the letter detailing BSA's acceptance of 'rock worship', I wonder first if their 'list' actually has rock worship on it someplace.

But probably not. The juxtaposition of statements like these is why so many of us wallow in confusion as to what BSA really thinks...they don't speak clearly, or with one voice it seems.

 

It is as if they don't really WANT to address the questions - or else don't have answers for them. Either way, the waffliness of their morass of conflicting statements is a perfect way to invite 'local option' as a de facto policy. Which is, evidently, the current reality. Now, time to get back to the 'ballet'.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I think I have commented on this before, but when I was taking my Powder Horn Course, one of the Crew I was in was a Wiccan. He was an adult advisor for his Council's OA and was quite spiritual. The second week end the Saturday is a campout and we asked him about being Wicca, he explained his beliefs and was quite feverent about them. I think a couple of the guys were ready to heckle him about it, but his sincerity and depth of emotion when talking about Wicca left us all with a favorable opinion of him and his beliefs.

 

When I think about the forum, I think we have quite a few members who are in the Wicca/Pagan/that what Christians would call an Alternative

Belief System who post frequently here.

[DanKroh]

Gonzo quoted: According to National's website, it says in part:

"Virtually every religion is represented in the Boy Scouts of America, from Catholics and Protestants, to the Armenian Church of America and Zoroastrians. The Religious Relationships Committee, which includes over 30 religious groups represented in Scouting, determines whether a religion is an appropriate partner for Scouting, and reviews any duty to God material which is to be used in Scouting for consistency with Boy Scout policies."

 

I believe this paragraph concerns who can become a chartering partner for BSA units, not which religions are acceptable for the members to follow.

 

"I must believe that wicca, witchcraft, paganism, maybe some other isms out there are "unacceptable"."

 

Gonzo, what in particular about Wicca/Paganism do you find "unacceptable"? Witchcraft, btw, is not a religion per se, it is a practice of some people who follow Pagan religions.

[Trevorum]

Gonzo,

 

I think perhaps we may be talking about two different things. The BSA Religious Relationships subcommittee does indeed pass judgement on whether or not a given institution is an appropriate Chartering Organization. I'm not aware of any applicants who have been turned down, but concievably there might be some religious fringe sect that say, glorifies violence, that might be denied as a potential sponsor of a unit.

 

On the other hand, there is no list of acceptable faiths for individual membership. Any person is welcome to join, regardless of faith, as long as that person professes a belief in (a) god(s). But note that "BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God" This effectively means that all beliefs are acceptable.

 

I am aware that this makes some people uncomortable, knowing that they may be rubbing elbows with pagans (sorry, Dan). But that's the way it is.

 

 

[DanKroh]

"I think perhaps we may be talking about two different things. The BSA Religious Relationships subcommittee does indeed pass judgement on whether or not a given institution is an appropriate Chartering Organization. I'm not aware of any applicants who have been turned down, but concievably there might be some religious fringe sect that say, glorifies violence, that might be denied as a potential sponsor of a unit."

 

Actually, Trev, I believe that the Covenant of the Goddess has been campaigning for a while now to be on the Religous Relationships subcommittee and has been turned down because they are not seen as a "national organization representing Wicca", even though they represent Wicca and are, well, a national organization.

 

I believe that was part of the impetus for the starting of SpiralScouts (which was started by a CoG elder).

 

"I am aware that this makes some people uncomortable, knowing that they may be rubbing elbows with pagans (sorry, Dan). But that's the way it is."

 

Well, we all know how dangerous those pagan elbows can be....

 

[Trevorum]

Dan,

My understanding is that the CoG was denied membership on the committee because of the so called "Rule of 25", which stipulates that a faith organization must be the chartering partner of at least 25 units nationwide to qualify for membership on the committee. Now, whether this was a clever way of excluding pagans or was a reasonable way to limit the effective size of the commitee to a manageable number is debateable.

 

There is currently some confusion and debate within the commitee as to whether the Rule applies to membership within the sanctum, recognition of an religious awards program, or both. Because there is no secretary taking meeting minutes and no archive of past decisions, the situation currently looks open to review. I'll try keep you posted as things slooooowly unfold.

 

[DanKroh]

"My understanding is that the CoG was denied membership on the committee because of the so called "Rule of 25", which stipulates that a faith organization must be the chartering partner of at least 25 units nationwide to qualify for membership on the committee. Now, whether this was a clever way of excluding pagans or was a reasonable way to limit the effective size of the commitee to a manageable number is debateable."

 

Ahhh. My confusion; I thought one had to be a member of the subcommittee to be approved as a Chartering Organization. My bad.

 

I wonder if any coven has ever been turned down as a potential CO. For that matter, hasn't the UUA had their approval to be a CO revoked? Although, I gotta tell you that I'm still scratching my head over the Church of Scientology being approved as a CO, given the conditions outlined in the paragraph that Gonzo originally posted.

 

Honestly, I have trouble seeing a unit chartered by a coven being successful, given the climate of intolerance that seems to exist in the general public towards Pagans. And 25 of them? Forgetaboutit....

 

"There is currently some confusion and debate within the commitee as to whether the Rule applies to membership within the sanctum, recognition of an religious awards program, or both. Because there is no secretary taking meeting minutes and no archive of past decisions, the situation currently looks open to review. I'll try keep you posted as things slooooowly unfold."

 

Thanks, information is always greatly appreciated.

[Trevorum]

From a strictly theological viewpoint and historical perspective (and I apologize if I offend anyone), I don't see a whole lot of difference between Scientology and LDS. However, Scientology is clearly set up as a pyramid scheme which does not seem to be the case in LDS. Scientology also lacks the integrated system of ethics which is a necessary component of any religion (as defined by those pesky anthropologists).