lrsap Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I read the thread about how to take 100 boys and run the PM, and there was some great advice in there. I am a SM on the other end of the spectrum. We are about 6 months in, and have grown from 5 to 9 boys. While it was not my intention to run a version of a NSP, I opened with two boys that now have drivers licenses and then the rest are freshly 13 to 11. So I have the two older boys in SPL/ASPL positions, but really treat them as JASMs, which we will officially make them very soon. We have set a goal of "16 by Summer Camp". We recognize the need to grow by at least one patrol to run all aspects of a PM troop. I am seeking advice on two fronts. One, does anyone have recruiting ideas that have worked to bring in 5-6 scouts at one shot? I ask because if I get a patrol's worth in at one time, my problems are solved. While yes, it is a NSP, a NewSP beats a NoSP any day. The other question is what to do if what I think might happen comes to pass. If we make our goal by getting one scout here, two scouts there, what number is too many and what methods do you use to say, "Ok guys, our one patrol is just too big. Time to split." One thing I would say, our approach to adult leadership in this troop is one of as little drama as possible. Too much of that in my neck of the woods, and leading scouts is hard enough without dealing with soap opera games. I'm saying this to lead to the point that recruiting Cub Scout Packs affiliated with any CO that also has a troop is not something I am interested in. Will I happily talk to scouts and parents dissatisfied with the next step in their CO, YOU BETCHA! But I'm not going to seek them out. Well, I'm off to surf the web for church youth group meeting times and packs with no brother troops. Thanks everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaoman45 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 A-hi. We were in a similar situation in 2007. Our troop dwindled to about 7. The best thing to do is establish a rapport with the pack. As a long story short for our case, there was a split up in our troop and the other newly-formed troop would attract Webelos from our traditional feeder pack. This caused us to "suffocate" for a while until we started to do more with the pack. Plus, since four years passed, Scouts had less connections with the other troop and had no reason to beg mammy to go elsewhere. These groups were around 5 or 6, or even 12! Patrols larger than 12 should be split, depending on activity level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudu Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I've done that a few times: built a "Troop in Trouble" from five or six Scouts up to Baden-Powell's 32. lrsap writes: One, does anyone have recruiting ideas that have worked to bring in 5-6 scouts at one shot? How about 12-20? Lots of people told me that it was against school or district policy to get access to our local public schools during school hours. Like so very much in Scouting, that is not true. At least not for those of us with kindly, non-threatening personalities. If you follow the advice in this recruiting presentation, about 75% of the audience will (in front of their peers) sign your "Yes! I want to go Camping!" sign-up sheets, and of that about 28% will actually register with you: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm OK, now print this out: Ignore it until the parents of your 12-20 new Scouts fill out the paperwork, and you panic because you are not really prepared to multiply your Troop's membership by four (4) in one week: lrsap writes: So I have the two older boys in SPL/ASPL positions, but really treat them as JASMs, which we will officially make them very soon. We recognize the need to grow by at least one patrol to run all aspects of a PM troop. The idea that you need more than one Patrol to use the Patrol Method, and that your two most mature Scouts should not be the Patrol Leaders: Is NOT the "Real" Patrol Method. What you describe is the Troop Method. The "Real" Patrol Method is what made Scouting so popular back before the invention of Leadership Development. Sounds abstract, doesn't it? That's why you need to print this out and read it when you panic at your own success. You see, there is a very serious flaw in my recruiting presentation. By definition the boys who signed up all (as in 100%) either: 1. Dropped out of the hell we call "Cub Scouts;" or 2. Had the good sense to never join it in the first place. That's why you will panic at your own success. You stood in front of an initially hostile audience, you promised them "Adventure," and you were shocked at how popular Boy Scouting can be. But deep in your heart you know that the Troop Method you describe was designed for Cub Scout Survivors, not for boys who demand adventure and will drop out as soon as they realize that instead of Adventure you are geared up to teach them office leadership theory. To keep the Promise of Adventure you made to these red-blooded American boys, you MUST separate their two Patrols by 150-300 feet, have each Patrol conduct an independent Patrol Hike to opposite ends of the camp during the day, eat separately, and then clash wildly against each other with Wide Games in the dark: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm To accomplish that, your two most mature Scouts MUST be the Patrol Leaders, not "SPL and ASPL" or JASMs. Baden-Powell designed the Patrol System to work without an SPL. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Our troop is in Choaman's situation, although not dwindling down to 7 anytime soon. But our crossovers aren't hanging in there. (One First-Class-First-Year kid just left us for video games!) See if a couple of the the boys in your troop can get permission to visit the middle school classroom to recruit boys. Set up a campsite on the lawn, demonstrate a fun skill you all like to do. Show pictures, etc ... Pass out flyers, take down names. IMHO, that's your best shot at getting a bunch at a time. As far as organizing patrols. Leave that up to the boys. If your boys seem to be all fairly good teachers, then don't even bother with an NSP. Once you see applications coming in, start the boys thinking about who would like to spin off the new/resurrected patrol. Identify your best natural leader among your younger boys and ask him if he wants be PL of a bunch of new recruits. That happened to me when I was a scout, and sure I had some challenges, but we had a barrel of fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Also, I agree with K that you don't have to rule out the 16 y/o's as PLs. But if you have a 12 y.o. who has the right stuff, don't be afraid to put him at the front of the line-up. I'd say you only have to really split 'em when you have more than 14 who attend meetings regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudu Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 "But if you have a 12 y.o. who has the right stuff, don't be afraid to put him at the front of the line-up." Only if (for some reason) the 12yo can move a single Patrol across a Scout camp to a memorable lunch destination better than the 16yos can. If the conditions are right to cook hot dogs over a fire the new Scouts start themselves, so much the better. My recruiting presentation appeals to boys hungry for outdoor adventure. You must deliver that on the first campout or they will drop out right away. Such boys tend to be a whole lot less "polite" about how ridiculously lame a boy nearly their own age is, pretending to be a "leader" while adults and/or a 16yo "SPL" tag along. If the 16yo is the Patrol Leader (with no adult supervision) they will put all that energy into impressing him (after they test him, of course). That natural dynamic between young boys and the most competent teenagers is why Boy Scouting was once so very popular.... Yours at 300 feet, Kudu The good news is: (Physical Distance + A Good New Game) = Adventure http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/index.htm http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/index.htm (This message has been edited by Kudu) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrsap Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 "Ignore it until the parents of your 12-20 new Scouts fill out the paperwork, and you panic because you are not really prepared to multiply your Troop's membership by four (4) in one week" Kudu, I have to be honest, you nailed me dead on with that one. When you said "Why not 12-20?" my eyes shot open a bit when I started thinking about the tents and other gear we don't have. But then I started thinking, if I take a kid who has never been camping before and I can just get him out there once, sitting around a campfire looking at a billion stars he has never seen because of the city lights, I don't necessarily need all the latest and greatest. That has probably been one of my biggest personal problems so far, thinking about what we don't have instead of appreciating what we do. I sometimes have to keep telling myself as long as they have what they need to cook, eat and sleep, the bells and whistles will be accumulated over time. And I definitely see your point about not having an SPL/ASPL, and I think I like it. The only problem I have with that one is in our current format, the one patrol we do have has a 13y.o. PL that has really stepped up and has the patrol's buy-in as far as him being in charge goes. With as well as he has done, I'm not sure how to unring that bell or of I would even want to. It may be a case of making the bed and lying in it. But that doesn't mean we need to ever have an SPL/ASPL after the change in position of the older boys. And if you were to watch the whole thing in action, instead of SPL/ASPL/PL, it kind of runs like a PL/APL/APL because only having the one patrol only gives the two boys one patrol to lead. About the only thing that is separate is the camping and cooking. The young guns do theirs, the older boys do theirs, and my ASM and me do ours. So in an odd kind of not exactly way, we are doing it close to PM, just some of the patches are different. To be honest, looking back I think I unintentionally tricked the older boys. They weren't crazy about being stuck in a patrol having to be a patrol leader for a bunch of kids 3-5 years younger than us. Ok, no problem. You we will make you Senior Patrol Leader and Assistant Senior Patrol Leader of the one patrol troop. Kudu, let me ask. When we do get a good number of boys and have 2-3 patrols, does not having an SPL, and instead have a group of PL give a SM a better grasp of what is going on with the patrols? It might seem that it would. And when it is time for planning sessions, do you have one boy lead them or does one just normally seem to take the lead? I think I am beginning to grasp your concept of an SPL, but please correct me if I'm off base. Do you see it as an unnecessary mid-management position that gets in the way of the fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudu Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The only problem I have with that one is in our current format, the one patrol we do have has a 13y.o. PL that has really stepped up and has the patrol's buy-in as far as him being in charge goes. I've done this with a number of Troops, and never the same way twice. Since you have an established Patrol with a Patrol Leader who has stepped up, I agree. The ideal is mixed-age Patrols, of course, and I like to keep at least two older Scouts together so they don't resent being with younger Scouts. Two competent older Scouts can head a large "New Scout Patrol" of as many as 16 Scouts, if need be. After a while, some of them will drift over to the established Patrol, or the 16 Scouts will split into two Patrols with a talented leader (and his buddy) leaving the established Patrol to head this new break-off Patrol. Don't get hung up about how many Scouts should be in a Patrol, it depends on the competency of your available older Scouts: Their ability to control a Patrol on a day hike without adult supervision, and camp 150-300 feet from the nearest Patrol at night. Yes, 16 is normally too many for one Patrol, but with two older Scouts they can informally break into smaller groups as needed. "They weren't crazy about being stuck in a patrol having to be a patrol leader for a bunch of kids 3-5 years younger than us." Take them aside separately and ask each, as a favor to you, to take the job of Patrol Leader on with a buddy of their choice. Tell them what you like about their leadership abilities. Don't be afraid of horse-trading. Ask each outright: "What will it take to get you to move from SPL or ASPL to Patrol Leader? If MP3 players are taboo in your unit, for instance, consider allowing them in certain situations. If you are using the "Real" Patrol Method, you won't really know that anyway I always arranged to get the Natural Leaders out of class for the sixth-grade recruiting presentation, so they are involved right from the beginning. Do the presentation yourself, because the point is to use peer-pressure + perceived danger to whip up a frenzy. Teenagers can downplay the element of danger ("We only see rattlesnakes in PA and bears in the Adirondacks"), so I usually use Scouts for Q&A while the sign-up clipboards are passed around. Keep it moving: The presentation is an action movie trailer, not reality TV. "I think I am beginning to grasp your concept of an SPL, but please correct me if I'm off base. Do you see it as an unnecessary mid-management position that gets in the way of the fun?" Yes, an SPL is complete waste of a Troop's limited talent if your Patrols hike during monthly campouts without close adult supervision. Likewise for camping Patrols 150-300 feet apart. Baden-Powell did NOT require an SPL for Troops of 32 Scouts (four Patrols). Good Patrol Leaders are perfectly able to designate one of their own to take point when necessary, at Opening Ceremonies and PLC Meetings, for instance, and for "SPL Meetings" at Camporees and summer camp. That being said, when your Troop is truly boy-run, your best Natural Leaders may well demand an election for SPL. Time for horse-trading! No reason that the SPL cannot also be a Patrol Leader, but wait until later, when they demand it. It is best to have them first see how well independent Patrols can work without an SPL. "I started thinking about the tents and other gear we don't have." Simply add to your Troop's Personal Equipment List: "Small Tent: Optional, but we need them!" You would be surprised at how many tents some Scouts' extended families can get hold of. A small $50 tent is a great gift idea for Boy Scouts, and seems to be popular (especially with families with limited incomes, for some reason). You should provide a list of recommended models to avoid toy tents. In good weather a Patrol might sleep under the stars, with a rental lean-to "Plan B" in case of rain. Likewise you can rent a separate small lean-to for each Patrol, and pitch around it what tents they do have. "But then I started thinking, if I take a kid who has never been camping before and I can just get him out there once, sitting around a campfire looking at a billion stars he has never seen because of the city lights." Separating the Patrols multiplies that effect! Have one Troop campfire in the middle of the circle of Patrols, then head off to their separate Patrol campsites at bedtime. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-mckai1 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Our troop had dwindled to about 6 active scouts we started hosting a webelos weekend where the scouts taught 3 activities the first year and 6 belt loops this year. I expect to crossover 14 webelos to the troop this year and at least 1 transfer scout. Never did I or any of my leaders ask to join our troop we just interacted with the webelos and parents. Just reach out to webelos and boys and your ranks will grow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrsap Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Kudu, You would be happy to hear that we had a great camping trip this weekend, and what made it great was what I was able to learn from the absence of one specific Scout. Our 13 y.o. PL was unable to make the trip. Totally planned, sometimes you just can't make it. Anyway, he worked with his patrol in getting ready for the trip without him and I thought he did a good job. But when it came right down to it, the young guns just weren't up to it at this point in time. A lot of deviation from the plan if you get my drift. I was getting close to my "I have to do something here" point, and the two older boys must have sensed it. Without me saying anything they flew in and got them on point, organized and doing what they knew they should be doing if they weren't, well, 11 year-olds. For the rest of the weekend they assumed the natural leadership positions of sort of a co-PL, working together in providing leadership in different aspects of the trip. The better cook showed the boys some kitchen skills, the other organizing clean up, etc. This is all to say when we get our new patrol in, the plan you described sounds like it will work perfectly for my guys. The normal 13y.o. PL has shown in his absence how much his guys rely on him. And running a bunch of fresh faces sounds not only what the 16 y.o.s should be doing, my eyes have no been opened to the fact that this is what they will enjoy much more than I thought. And as someone who was never a Boy Scout, and just a "Cub Scout Survivor" leader, it's one thing to read about this stuff. To actually see it in action is an amazing sight indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I quadrupled the number of boys in my troop when I took it over. Because I am so good? Heck no, because I believed it was possible. 1) Assess the problem correctly and set a goal way beyond what you think you are capable of doing. You may not reach the goal, but you will be far further down the road than if you set your goal too low. 2) Figure out what works and repeat it, if it doesn't dump it immediately. 3) Expect great things from the boys and quit tying to do it yourself. 4) Remember, no boy in the troop wants to do recruiting 24/7. He signed on for a program, make sure he gets it. Others will follow when he tells his buddies all the things he's doing. 5) No equipment for the new guys? Heck, with 4 times as many boys, you have 4 times the potential in fund-raising efforts. 5) Success feeds on itself, but so does failure. "Boys, we've got a problem, no boys want to be part of the troop." Yeah, that's a great recruiting start! "Boys, we have a good program, what should we do to make it better and more attractive to others who might want to get involved?" No one wants to be on a losing team. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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