PM in a large Troop

[Pack212Scouter]

I would like some input from you all. How can a good PM be implemented in a large troop successfully? Our Troop runs about 100+ boys in 10+- patrols, and we get about 3 patrols of Webelos (25-30) bridging over each year. I'm not looking for answers such as "the Troop is too big," "split it," "cap it," etc. The realities are 1. the parents from out CO want their boys to be in a troop with the CO. 2. The CO is not interested in having another unit.

 

What has been happening is the new boys come over as new Scout patrols. They generally want to stay with their buddies that they've been with in Cub Scouts for years. They get assigned a youth Patrol Guide who is usually at least Star. over time, these patrols dwindle down and wind up merged with other patrols. On outings, there are usually ad-hoc patrols because of the limits on how much cooking equipment you can transport (and the Troop own without increadible expendeture).

 

Little of this is optimal, I know, but has anyone had success with reinstalling a good PM with a unit like this?

[JMHawkins]

Well, the good news is that getting an honest to goodness Patrol Method going will make the size problem irrelevant. Doesn't really matter how big the Troop is if the Patrols are 5-8 Scouts and the Troop is just a collection of Patrols that share resources. Size is a bigger problem when you try to have youths run the entire Troop of 100+ Scouts. SPLs probably can't handle that, so the adults have to step in. If instead the main action happens at the Patrol level, then the PLs can run their 8 person Patrols no problem. The PLC might be a bit unwieldy, but maybe you could virtually split the Troop into, say, Port and Starboard with two PLCs that coordinate things.

 

Anyway, from your brief description I don't think size is your biggest problem. I'd say it's the NSPs. I know some folks here feel otherwise and NSPs have their proponents, but I think age-banded Patrols are terrible. Makes it too much an extended classroom instead of a self-governing unit. I think it just greases the skids to a Webelos III program where the incoming Scouts wait for someone to organize them and guide them. I'm sure some units avoid that, but it sees like it's swiming upstream to do so. I would try to end the NSPs and mix the new Scouts in with existing Patrols. That should create more continutiy and reduce the merging and extinction of Patrol as the cohort ages. Yes, it "breaks up" the dens, but really, by the time they are Boy Scouts, they should be developing new interests and should find better personality fits as knots of two or three in the existing patrols than with their age-banded classmates.

 

For the ad-hoc patrols on campouts, sounds like you should plan at least two outings a month, and split the Troop between them (Port and Starboard watches again...). If 5 Patrols go on Campout 1,and the other 5 go on Campout 2 the next weekend, you should have a little easier time with the equipment shortage. It complicates logistics a bit, but if you have 100 Scouts, you should have gobs and gobs of adults to do the driving, and more than enough ASMs to provide adequate adult leadership for multiple outings per month. The outings could be to the same location, or they could be different ones, leave it up to the PLCs. That would actually give the Patrols some room to express their personality. If one group of Patrols prefers hiking and another cycling or kayaking, the Troop can provide both. Then you're using your size to your advantage by giving the Scouts (and the Patrols they form) more options.

[Nike]

If you want to keep NSPs, perhaps you should mix up those 30 kids each spring. Everyone will still be with one or two buds from their old den, but they'll also be meeting and working with new boys.

 

As for encouraging PM, if there was ever a troop that could use independent patrol activities, it's one this big. Let 8 boys plan thier own weekend trip several times a year, with 2 adults along to drive and provide safety and sanity checks, and I'm sure you'll start seeing better patrol cohesion and leadership.

 

Splitting your troop into two teams/crews seems like the best way to utilize your current equipment stores without having to lay out for a bunch of new stuff all at once, however, you will be putting twice as much stress on the gear, so I'm sure you will need to up your repair and replacement funds.

 

How long have you had this many patrols? If your CO is really big, does it have a fundraiser like an annual BBQ or spaghetti dinner where the boys could act as servers, table bussers, anything, and raise money through tip jars for more equipment? Even in this economy, people appreciate the effort boys put into earning thier own way.(This message has been edited by Nike)

[qwazse]

Kudos to the CO for keeping their families so engaged!

 

I've said it elsewhere, but NSP's should only last 5 months max. By the time summer rolls around, the PLs should select members from the NSP's to offset their losses from the previous year. This makes that "dwindle and merge" process a scheduled event.

 

How activities are coordinated should be up to the PLC and adult leaders. But certain activities (backpacking along a single trail, for example) are ill-suited for a dozen patrols in the same weekend. Never experienced having to manage events with as many patrols as you have, but for about half the size, I pick an area with multiple loop trails, and have each group come up with a hike plan.

[Eagle92]

I admit I am biased AGAINST NSPs as when my troop implemented them, they did not work. However I know one SM who swears by them, but he has this catch: once they they stay in a NSP only for a few months, I think until after summercamp. reason for that is that they are with their friends and are comfortable until their first major trip with the troop, summercamp, and then they get to know the folks a lot better in the troop, make new friends, and decide where they want to go.

 

Again my troop had 2-3 mixed age patrols, depending upon numbers, and a Leadership Corps of older, experienced scouts who had PL expereince and had troop level duties. Every 6 months scouts had the opportunity to change patrols and elect PLs. Unually folks stayed with the same patrol their entire time in the troop until they got into the LC. The exception was when starting a new patrol due to numbers, then volunteers would be asked to start a new patrol. Sometimes the SPL did have to select folks to be part of the new patrol.

 

 

Some ideas.

 

1) do not use ad hoc patrols if possible. Can it be hard, yes. Can some events require a minimum number per patrol, yes (and i do not like it either). But by not ad hocing it, ti will stress the importance of everyone's role.

 

2) If possible, again IF POSSIBLE , avoid having everyone form the same school in a patrol. I say this b/c my troop had to deal with over 10 different public and private school schedules, so you could not make everyone happy. I vividly remember a camporee that was scheduled when one school had a mandatory saturday event, a test I believe, and all but me and one other person in my patrol was at school that weekend.

[click23]

What a wonderful problem to have, here is how I would organize the troop

 

1 SPL

1 first ASPL, number two youth

1 ASPL over NSPs, troop guides, and den chiefs

1 ASPL over venture patrols(if your troop uses venture patrols)

1 ASPL over instructors and LNT Trainers, and overall instruction of the troop

1 ASPL over the rest of the PORs

12 Patrols

 

As many as the other PORs as needed

 

My thought on NSPs, once a boy hits Second Class he moves out to another patrol

 

I am not a fan of ad-hoc patrols because it destroys the patrol method. If it is necessary to join patrols on outings for logistical reasons, they should not lose their patrol identity. An example would be if you had to join the snakes and eagles, the snakes might cook breakfast while the snake clean up. As far as activity, if the eagles have 4 boys show up, the they compete only with 4 boys. If the hawks have 8 boys, then they compete with 8 boys. This will encorage the patrols to show up with as many boys as they can, the boys will encourage as many boys in their patrol to show up for outings as possible.

 

On outings, I would think that your troop would have more patrol/multiple patrol outings and fewer troop outings.

[Eagledad]

I think you have got some good advice already. If you do go NSPs for a few months (and we did this also with big groups of Webelos) make sure everyone (especially the new parents) understand that the new scouts will join a more mature patrol in a few months. We encourage the new scouts to watch and shop for the new patrol they want to join. The mixed age (mature Patrols) are also encouraged to watch and shop for new scouts to recruit during those same months.

 

Now I know a lot of folks think new scouts will do better if they stay with the same group of boys they have been with since kindergarten, but we found one or two buddies are all they really need. Its usually the adults that feel the whole group would be better together. But young scouts need older scouts to really get the most out of scouting. If your program doesnt work that way, Patrol Method struggles and requires more outside intervention from the adults to maintain positive growth and more importantly, fun. And honestly, adults arent fun.

 

Barry

 

[Kudu]

 

Eight Scouts per Patrol assumes falsely that all the boys in a Troop of Webelos crossovers actually like Scouting.

 

So if you want to keep your indoor Patrols together on campouts, simply increase the number of Scouts in each Patrol to ten or twelve, or whatever number each Patrol needs to get eight of them to a campout.

 

That is IF you don't want to change how you camp.

 

If you DO want to change how you camp, well:

 

I volunteer at such a Troop now and I find that about 50% of Cub Scouts crossover because their parents want Eagle. So typical Boy Scout campouts are just fine for them.

 

The good news is that 30-50% will turn into gung-ho campers IF you filter out all those future Paper Eagles.

 

Backpacking is a great Paper Eagle Filter because the indoor boys and adult helicopters will select themselves out of such rugged campouts, so no hard feelings!

 

Hold a couple short trips, even as little as one (1) mile to get the kinks out and allow some of the boys to drop out.

 

Ad hoc Patrols are a good thing.

 

That's Right!

 

I said it!

 

Ad hoc Patrols are a good thing.

 

The boys who continue to backpack can form what Green Bar Bill called "Real" Patrols. These are your Real Scouts. Two or three of them are your Troop's natural boy-leaders, with the talent to function on a near adult level if you let them. Since these are ad hoc Patrols, the natural leaders will tend to take leadership because you don't have the circus of elections and POR credit.

 

Shhh!

 

WARNING!

 

In 21st century Leadership Development it is taboo to identify "Real" Scouts and "Real" boy-leaders.

 

Now, with 200 parents (plus another 10-50 of their outdoor friends, relatives, and co-workers) you have at least one (1) adult who is an experienced backpacker willing to take the lead (IF you know how to find him or her).

 

HINT: Your most gifted outdoor parents DO NOT participate in regular monthly campouts.

 

But they WILL surface if a proposed adventure sounds challenging. You just have to look for them.

 

From there you will discover that another half-dozen adults love backpacking, but only if somebody else takes responsibility for leadership.

 

Likewise with 200 parents (plus friends, relatives, and co-workers) at least one of them is gifted and willing to the take the lead at canoe, shotgun, SCUBA, climbing, 50 mile bike trips, etc, with another half-dozen adults dying to participate in something like that.

 

If that one parent does not step up, then hire a professional guide (climbing, for instance). Some Boy Scout camps have volunteers that will staff a climbing tower and teach Climbing Merit Badge.

 

So, the answer is to form elite ad hoc High Adventure Patrols for the Real Scouts, open to ALL ranks and ages.

 

Do NOT exclude the younger Scouts (which is the common wisdom behind Venture Patrols).

 

If a small boy is gung-ho and mature, your Real boy-leaders will figure out how to include him if they like him.

 

What I do is let the best Real boy-leaders form their own Real Patrols which (by definition) work independently of close adult supervision during the day. These are self-selected with the right to exclude annoying young Scouts and older trouble-makers. The rejects then form Patrols with more adult supervision.

 

Shhh!

 

WARNING!

 

Do not use the term "elite" Patrol.

 

It's not PC!

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Kudu, I have always wondered about something

 

You always talk about the natural leaders and how important it is to identify them and put them in charge or have them be in charge or however you explain it.

 

What so you do with the not natural leader boy, what do you do to mentor him? I am not saying how do you turn him into a leader, but what do you do the less shiny lights in the troop? Some may have great potential but the boy keeps it so locked up its hard for others to identify

 

Its almost as if you are not a natural leader, you get kicked to the curb with nothing in life to look forward to but to be a follower. I know I have missed something and would like to know what I missed

[qwazse]

Ad hoc Patrols are a good thing.

 

I'm with K on this one. If a self-selecting group of boys wants to go on an adventure, they don't have to be reorganized into their own patrol to accomplish that. Nor do they have to drag the unwilling in their respective patrols along. They do have to communicate with their respective patrols so that everyone knows whose showing up for dinner and who might be out on a conditioning hike/paddle/whatever until nightfall.

 

I too, don't use the word "elite", because most of the "long walkers" are the farthest thing imaginable from "high brow". They don't see themselves as anything special, they just seem to have found a spot on the map that attracts them, and they will do whatever it takes to get there. Often these boys will put in extra time to make sure the troop is in order while they are off doing their thing -- a real servant mentality. The old term "Leadership Corps" applies best to this group. But in a troop as large as yours, you can have several groups like this.

 

Regardless, a good Patrol Method is more about accountability and communication than it is about set numbers of perfectly suited groups of individuals.

[Eagle92]

Kudu,

 

Question for ya, why don't you put the gung-ho Scouts in one patrol so you do not need ad hoc patrols? Is it b/c you need the gung-ho scouts in the various patrols to mentor the others? I would think that one gung ho patrol could inspire the others to perform, esp with inter-patrol competitions?

 

Again this is curiosity on my part. I've been very fortunate to have been in some good troops that have not faced the problems I've read here.

 

Thanks

[Eagledad]

>>I'm with K on this one. If a self-selecting group of boys wants to go on an adventure, they don't have to be reorganized into their own patrol to accomplish that

[John-in-KC]

Lots of good advice already.

 

I assume you have the equipment to support 100 Scouts.

 

I've had equipment to bed down, feed, and support 100 Soldiers.

 

You need more than one quartermaster. If it were me, I'd be mentoring the SPL to:

 

Chief Quartermaster: He's someone 16-17, and to make sure as much as possible the logistics can be executed by the youth.

 

- Assistant QM, fabric: He keeps an eye on the tents and the dining flys. When he's out on a campout, he looks at canvas/nylon and if needed tags it for attention (repairs/cleaning) back home. He teaches PLs how to maintain a troops fabric gear.

 

- Assistant QM, fuels: He keeps an eye on the stoves, lanterns, gas tanks, hoses, ad infinitum. He teaches PLs how to maintain things that burn fuels.

 

- Assistant QM, grubmaster: He keeps an eye on chuck boxes and cooking gear.

 

Each of the QMs also serves as a primary Troop QM for 3 patrols.

 

The technical duties rotate among the assistants every four months. The service to Patrols is for the year of a Warrant Office.

 

In fact, at 100 youth, each Troop POR can be doubled or even tripled. Each person then becomes the primary support to several patrols.

 

At 100 boys, I might consider a dedicated ASPL to the Den Chiefs. I'd add to his tasks liaison with the various CMs where the Troops has sent DCs. Why use an ASM is there's a mature and ready ASPL?

[Pack212Scouter]

Alot of good input. Thanks. Now the challenge will be to begin working it in.

[OneHour]

We have 113 scouts. Where we live,sports and academics are kings and scouting is secondary. So this is how our troop is run: 6 permanent patrols (max 15 membership) with 2 NSP's.

1 SPL

1 ASPL - over 3 permanent patrols + 1 NSP

1 ASPL - over 3 permanent patrols + 1 NSP

1 ASPL - over Troop Guides and Instructors (we call him Trails to First Class Boss)

1 ASPL - over 2 QMs, Chaplain Aide, Historian, Librarian, and Scribe

8 Patrol Leaders

8 Patrol QMs reporting to Troop QMs

 

6 permanent patrols are mixed ages

2 NSPs are most Webelos and some new older scouts who just joined.

- New scout who reaches 2nd class gets to choose a permanent patrol to join for the rest of his scouting career.

 

Why 15 scouts maximum per patrol? Because at any one campout, we have at most 8-9 scouts. Again, in our area, sports and academic event are kings! In the fall, we lose the band members and football players. In the spring, we lose baseball players and orchestra members. To date, this has worked out well. 8-9 scouts per outing keep the patrol intact. Each campout, we average 51 scouts.

 

It's a logistic nightmare, but we cannot stop the influx. Despite what one poster wrote about large troop, our boys stay with the program! We lose about 2-3 boys a year due to lack of interest. These were boys who do not show any interest in the first place. We lose about 8-10 due to age out or Eagle out, mostly juniors and seniors. They boys are taking full AP classes and we rarely see them. Our boys for some reasons stay until they finish their Eagles. Just two weeks ago, one got his Eagle BoR done with 8 days to spare (until his 18th). The boys in our troop love to stay and camp with the troop! Probably the one story that made me the proudest is during the weekend of new year, one of our former patrol (mostly 18 years old seniors) got together on Friday 1/30 and went camping. They later told me that they were thrifty with their food purchases. They even did a trash sweep! They went camping because one of them saw me at the stop light and took it as a sign from above that they need to go camping one more time before they head off to college! I cried!

 

There will be a point where the troop becomes too large. Our SPL right now is having a difficult time controlling the boys. I help him from time to time and get the boys to quiet down and listen. Outside of that, the SPL and his staff do most of the work! PLC lasts about 2 hours. They start off by planning for 2 months. Next month, they review the upcoming month and plan for the next. So ... they are always 2 months ahead!

 

1Hour