no more patrol overnighters?

[Eagle92]

Jet

 

Alcohol fuels are permissable IF the equipment you are using is designed to use it. The Policy on the Storage, Handling, and Use of Chemical Fuels and Equipment found here stats

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-013WB.pdf

 

Chemical Fuels not Recommended (bold in original)Unleaded gasoline; liquid alcohol fuels, including isopropyl alcohol, denatured ethyl alcohol, and ethanol; and other flammable chemicals that are not in accordance with the manufacturers instructions for chemical-fueled equipment. (emphasis mine)

 

So if you have a MSR Whisperlite International stove, that MSR states can use gas, kero, alcohol, jet fuel, etc in their instructions, you are good to go.

[Eagle92]

Moose,

 

Maybe your hubby's troop was like mine: wood and charcoal cooking only. The first time I ever lit a camp stove of any type was December 2009, when I "tested out" my Christmas present to make sure it would be usable Christmas Day. Kids didn't notice the residue on the stove

[qwazse]

BD First off I am not naive enough to believe my boy scouts are abstaining from sex.....So them bringing their girl friends along is irrelevant......and what makes it an official patrol outing anyhow????? Why couldn't they just go camping on their own.....we have patrols participate in paintball outside of scouting????

 

I agree about the promiscuity, but even fornicators need a break from the routine!

 

A rough idea of what is and isn't an patrol outing:

1. PL tells me it's a patrol outing.

2. I see on the plan everyone in Patrol X of Troop ### is invited.

3. If the girlfriends are on the manifest, I tell them it doesn't qualify as a patrol outing. (They may report to the Crew ### President, get officers' approval, arrange for chaperons trained in Venturing youth protection, schedule a crew outing, apply the age restrictions.)

4. If fornicating is in the plan, don't call it a BSA outing.

 

The point is we should PROUD to put the BSA seal of approval those boys who overnight as a patrol. We should not have to play semantics with the term "appropriate". We should have the freedom to rest easy at home having filed a solid tour plan on behalf of eight boys who are spending the night in an idyllic location 10 miles away. PL should be the recognized tour leader; the APL, assistant tour leader. The SM's signature should be all that's needed on the bottom.

[Beavah]

Personally I would like to see this become the final requirement for the highest scouting honor, the Eagle, "the candidate will sucessfully lead a patrol on an expedition of at least two nights using and teaching as many of his scoutcraft skills as possible, and without any adult supervision."

 

Nah, that's First Class, eh? The old 15 mile hike weekend. Let's not dumb Eagle down to da First Class level.

 

For Eagle it should be "the candidate will successfully plan and lead a group on an outdoor adventure expedition of at least 7 nights and covering at least 50 miles afoot or afloat, or at least 250 miles by bike, without any adult supervision." Just for da bureaucrats yeh can add "plans must include proper budget, transportation, safety, training, and gear preparation and approved on form 56-3927" (just kiddin').

 

That's da real deal. For palms, yeh have to run another expedition incorporating instruction and an activity like climbing, whitewater, etc.

 

Beavah

 

[RememberSchiff]

BP, I like your idea. Maybe add some more conditions

- expeditions cannot be in a previously explored area.

- adults can only assist in transportation

- a "challenge" to acquire a new skill for this expedition or to accomplish a task specified by Review Board with existing scout skills.

 

 

or maybe this spin

FC - First Aid Merit Badge

Star - WFA and add solo 48hr campout (must be a 1/2 mile away from anybody) with five mile hike in and out.

Life - community service project (I too have seen too many dumbed down Eagle projects)

Eagle - Solo patrol expedition, planned and executed by Eagle candidate.

 

This kills the adventure in Scouting. Welcome to the next 100 years, Sc-outing where kids are Cub Scouts from age 5 to 21.

 

Another $0.02

 

 

[Eagle92]

Problem with WFA for Star is that some places have a min. age of 16 if memory serves.

 

How about these requirements:

 

3. Take command of a crew of not less than four Sea Scouts for at least 48 consecutive hours, including two nights. You must delegate and supervise all duties. D

 

or

Successfully complete NAYLE (National Advance Youth Leadership Experience) training.

 

 

With apologies to Sea Scout QMs.

 

[shortridge]

Exploding propane tank:

 

(And for folks who just like to watch things explode, Mythbusters blows up a propane tank with a Gatling gun with incendiary rounds:

)

[BadenP]

Ok Beavah I can agree to that idea of 7 days. This idea also makes me believe just how much more improved the quality of an Eagle Scout would be.

[gcnphkr]

Eagle92 -- Thank you for the correction.

 

shortridge -- I wish it was just local restrictions. However, I have noticed an increased avoidance of the use of fires even when the restrictions are not in place. A scout can go through his entire time in scouting, including earning Eagle, and never light a fire. It may take a while, but I can easily see a future with no campfires without adult supervision.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Perhaps that's true. Is it really that much of a problem?

 

 

Ten days ago my Cub Pack did a service project for our Chartered Organization, and we had a hot dog roast as a social activity and snack to conclude the activity.

 

As an added bonus, the Bear Cubs built the fire for roasting the hot dogs in a barbeque.

 

Strictly speaking, the Guide to Safe Scouting discourages firebuilding until boys are Webelos.

 

Being PERMITTED to do something is more important than REQUIRING boys to do things, in my opinion.

 

It may be true that you could find an Eagle Scout or two who never built a fire. But that's a trivial criticism of the program to me since I think you'd find that the overwhelming majority of Eagle Scouts are at least modestly competent fire builders.

 

Is it really important if Scouts aren't REQUIRED to build fires if the overwhelming majority DO build fires?

 

Perhaps I could be branded as a terrible Cubmaster for allowing Bear Cubs to build a fire before they are Webelos. But it was a good teaching opportunity and I took it. So the boys got a start building fires sooner than they should have, strictly speaking.

 

There still a lot of flexibility in the Scouting program that leaders can use wisely to construct a quality program.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[Eagle732]

If it cuts, burns, or shoots they love it!

 

I'm not opposed to breaking a few silly rules as long as common sense prevails. Certainly having some Cubs build and light a campfire under the watchful eye of the CM or WDL is a good thing. It's when the 2nd Class Scout gets the lawnmower gas can out of the shed to "help" get the damp firewood going and no one is watching, that's when we have problems! Don't ask me how I know this!(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

[gcnphkr]

I think you would be surprised at how many Eagles cannot build a campfire, describe the symptoms associated with dehydration, identify poison ivy, use a map & compass or sharpen a knife). Heck, I'm amazed at how many don't know the Scout Oath.

[Basementdweller]

If a patrol comes to me and says Mr. B can we camp with out the rest of the troop........

 

 

I would never tell them no.

 

 

 

And ya know that is all that really matters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Besides, Taking a troop of 20 backpacking is poor backcountry edict. Taking a Patrol Backpacking is much more appropriate. You forever read about entire troops taking over shelters and designated camping areas on the AT.

[Horizon]

"I think you would be surprised at how many Eagles cannot build a campfire, describe the symptoms associated with dehydration, identify poison ivy, use a map & compass or sharpen a knife). Heck, I'm amazed at how many don't know the Scout Oath."

 

Campfire - they are OK in my troop, but far from the skill I had as a youth when we had ZERO stoves. When you are only allowed to build a campfire at best 2-3 months out of the year, IF we are camping at a drive-in place with fire rings, it is a challenge to fit it into the program. Please also note that the gathering of fuel is illegal in most of our campgrounds, so they are building fires with pre-cut and split wood from the grocery store. Finally, there is at best one or two pits for the entire Troop to share.

 

 

Dehydration - that one we have covered in Southern California, and we get to observe it in action regularly.

 

Poison ivy - they MIGHT know it, but they ALL know poison oak. We don'g get much ivy or sumac out here. Again, regional differences come into play.

 

Map and compass - covered easily at Camporee. We also have our entire Church mapped out with distance and direction for off-the-cuff compass challenges.

 

Sharpen a stick - sadly, some of my Scouts know this one TOO well. Had to confinscate several on a recent campout after they were turned into shivs and a younger Scout was being chased with them. This really has nothing to do with sharpening, but rather to do with issues of appropriate Scout behavior.

[BadenP]

From these later posts it is becoming obvious to me that our boy scout program has been slipping for a while now concerning scoutcraft skills. Granted scouts is more than just outdoor skills, it is also about leadership and citizenship. So why have we allowed this to happen? Many troops are doing a great job in keeping the outdoor aspect of scouting alive and growing, but most are not. In my experience this is due to many factors, the main one IMO, are SM's and ASM's who are not all that experienced/skilled in the outdoors growing up and receive minimal to no outdoor skills training during basic, IOLS, WB(yea I know), and other trainings. In my own council many boy scout leaders are going to private companies, such as REI, etc, to get basic and advanced training in outdoors. National is also a guilty culprit in the "Mazzuca Deemphasis of the Outdoors Policy".

 

Bottom line our boys are not getting the full scouting experience, the boy scout program seems to continue to become "wussified", and the average Eagle Scout if left alone out in the woods hasn't got enough basic outdoor skills to survive one night.

 

I would love to hear your thoughts and solutions.