no more patrol overnighters?

[BadenP]

Basement

Pretty self rightgeous attitude you have there bud. Just because you don't give your patrols the full range of experience explained in the patrol method doesn't mean all the others follow your example, including the other troops in your own council.

Anyway you slice it this is truly a severe blow to the boy scout experience, even for the troops that never tried it before, because now they will never have the opportunity. So it is not overblown at all.

 

Engineer

You bring up some very good points and I too wonder how they will be received by the CO's/COR's and how this may affect National's relationships with those organizations.

[Basementdweller]

I just don't see it as a big deal. Sorry

 

the adults go and simply don't associate with the boys and let them do there thing.

[shortridge]

Engineer,

 

I don't know where you're getting your information, but it's wrong. There has been no change that shifts anything on the COs or increases their liability or whatnot.

 

The sentence "The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities" has NOT been added recently. According to a Wayback Machine search (http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20090605145323/http://www.scouting.org/Training/YouthProtection.aspx) it has been part of the YP materials online since at least 2009. Again, it's not new.

[Engineer61]

Thanks Short....

 

...but my question still beckons...to the CO's realize that *they* are responsible for ensuring sufficient adult leadership is provided for each activity?

 

 

[Engineer61]

So, the G2SS says:

 

"The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient

leadership is provided for all activities."

 

But the Annual Charter Agreement (from my local Council) does not...it says only...(in bold print no less)

 

"(The chartered organization head or chartered organization representative must approve all leader applications

before submitting them to the local council.)"

 

and later ...

 

"(The committee chairman must sign all leadership applications before submitting them tot he chartered organization for approval.)"

[Beavah]

Yah, well, I reckon I might have finally found da issue that gets me to turn in my khakis and leave the BSA. Never leave scoutin', but yeh reach a point when yeh realize an individual organization is no longer livin' the mission and therefore not worth supporting.

 

Engineer61, there's been no change. The COs have always been da party responsible for units and their leadership. A troop is a youth program of the CO, not of the BSA. Unit volunteers work for the CO, not the BSA. The CO hires and fires their own volunteers, not the BSA... da BSA only approves their membership. Yeh can think of it like membership in da bar association. Yeh work for a law firm, but have membership in the bar. Your membership can be revoked for ethics violations, but it's the law firm, not the bar association, that's legally responsible for your actions as its agent.

 

Whether a CO fully understands that or just accepts that da BSA insurance will cover any likely defense without thinkin' it through depends on the CO.

 

Eagle92, da situation out in Utah with the forest fire involved a summer camp Wilderness Survival MB class with under-18 counselors. It was not a patrol outing. Liability had nuthin' to do really with the lack of adult supervision. The counselors were still employees even though they were under 18. So da camp had vicarious liability because of the employer relationship.

 

To my knowledge, there have been no incidents or accidents on patrol outings to justify this change in policy.

 

As yeh imagine possible scenarios, can yeh imagine communities and jurors where da thought of boys campin' in the big, scary wilderness on their own is viewed as irresponsible? Of course. Campin' and hikin' are probably one of da safest things yeh can do other than couch surfing, but it's becomin' an increasingly unknown thing to our modern sedentary lifestyles, and da unknown is always scary. Yeh could find some communities where jurors would find it irresponsible for a lad of age 16 to go out hunting, too. And others where it would be typical.

 

The BSA has chosen to take a stand on some cultural issues, even though they are fairly peripheral to the program, even at the cost of expensive (and sometimes losing...) litigation. I've supported 'em in that stand.

 

I wish they'd have the courage of their convictions to take a stand on an issue like this that actually goes to the core of our mission. Young men learn character by exercising judgment and making choices, without havin' some adult hovering over their shoulder to look sideways at and try to read their expression or to whine in front of or to manipulate into providing a "hint." More than any other part of Scoutin', preparing for da First Class outing as an independent patrol teaches real character and values, not da sort that yeh make up words for to please some adults at a BOR.

 

And yep, I know plenty of troops that still run patrol outings, without adults. Uniformly, universally, they are the best troops in any district and council, with young men we can truly be proud of.

 

Beavah

 

[mpaull]

While my experience in modern Scouting is somewhat limited, I have been a high-level sports official for some time, and am familiar with applying "RULES of play". When reading the quote from the new G2SS that started this thread, two words immediately jumped out at me - "appropriate" and "sufficient". These grey area words are open to considerable interpretation. Also, what does "present" mean? Many posters have bemoaned the demise of independant patrol action, and only a few have questioned what, exactly, do "appropriate", "sufficient" and "present" mean?

 

If I may pull a few quotes from other posts: "Adults should leave the boys alone unless something very stupidly dangerous is going on." (perdidochas), " ...Adults in the center of the Spokes and radiating out 300 feet are ... Is 300 feet close enough to qualify ... Is 300 yards? Half Mile? How close meets the "Appropriate adult leadership" " (OldGreyEagle). "I don't see a limit on how long a "spoke" could be." (SeattlePioneer).

 

I assume your Patrols will let you know over the course of their time with you what "appropriate" and "sufficient" mean for them. I'm sure it will be a sliding scale with differences between Patrols, and differences for the same Patrol over time.

 

I do know enough to understand that the Patrol method has been dealt a blow (and that some Leaders have been given a smack in the chops), but how devastating that blow is will be up to the Scouts to determine through their maturity, preparation, and assuming of the mantles of leadership. Which, I suppose, brings us almost back to the original intent of the Patrol method once again.

 

Share this G2SS revelation with your Patrols - it will become a point of pride for them that "appropriate" and "sufficient" mean that you are "present" at a site just over half a mile away, and that even though a bar of soap returned home still in the wrapper, the Patrol can still say, "Hey we did it! We made it happen". (Eamonn)

 

[qwazse]

BD - I just don't see it as a big deal. Sorry the adults go and simply don't associate with the boys and let them do there thing.

 

Let me spell out "the big deal" first in terms of practical and then in terms of prinicple.

 

Say you're one of those troops who camps the first of every month. You got 4 patrols, and by some stretch of youth leadership each has become a high perfoming team. You have two adult leaders who make excellent chaperons (down to the mythical 300'). So at the troop campout crakerbarrel, each PL comes to you with perfect hike/camp plans -- down to parent approvals -- for the weekend after next (the only one available because of sports, service projects, and fundraiser schedules). Each overnight is in a different location 5 miles from the troop meeting place in opposite directions. Tell me, which patrol gets the blessing of the coveted adult leadership? Alternatively, each patrol arranges a perfect overnight on a different week. Tell me, do you really expect the spouses of those two adults to part with them EVERY WEEKEND OF THE MONTH? Or do you really believe troop boy-led has EIGHT EXTRA ADULTS to share the burden of extra outings? So practically, the patrol method becomes unworkable.

 

The principle here: "Prove yourself capable, then achieve your potential!" If those badges boys earn are indeed proof, then the boys will rise to the potential. The only question is: will they do it with or without the BSA? Oh, and you coediphobes, without the BSA, they will bring their girlfriends along! And let's say they rescue someone, or do some service, or put out a fire, or later in life rally their platoon to level our enemies. When they do, I would like to hear the kids give a nod to "the BSA's patrol method."

 

Beav: Campin' and hikin' are probably one of da safest things yeh can do other than couch surfing, ...

 

I'm sure you'll agree that couch surfing has it's risks. Some of our nation's youth won't have a healthy heart past their 40th year because they aren't out hiking and camping. Now, there's a suit worth paying a lawyer for!

[Basementdweller]

qwazse

 

First off I am not naive enough to believe my boy scouts are abstaining from sex.....So them bringing their girl friends along is irrelevant......and what makes it an official patrol outing anyhow????? Why couldn't they just go camping on their own.....we have patrols participate in paintball outside of scouting????

 

Second I am involved in scouting nearly every weekend. The troop, crew, pack or den usually has something going on.......So to add the Patrol camp out or two wouldn't be that big a deal. The entire family is involved.......

 

I would bring the wife along and we would camp on the other side campground. No big deal. As far as 4 patrols goes, The SM takes his wife or parent, the other asm takes his wife or parent.......Again, communication and planning on OMG the adults part. Our job is to help them navigate the rules, and help provide means to the program they want..

 

You guys are so dramatic, it just simply isn't the end of the world. If one of our patrols want to camp on their own, this won't stop it.

[Beavah]

If one of our patrols want to camp on their own, this won't stop it.

 

Of course not. If they're already there, this will just cause 'em to think scouting is little kids stuff and they'll do it on their own.

 

But what it will do is discourage troops and SMs everywhere from pursuing it as an option, as somethin' to prepare their kids for, as a way of encouraging real growth. Just look at the responses from folks who changed their RT presentations and training. And it will cause the many troops that do allow and encourage it to reconsider, and for hovercraft G2SS parents to waive the rules and object because their little 16 year old baby can't possibly be allowed to be on his own for a night.

 

Yah, yah, so many troops have lost da scoutin' flame that the challenge isn't being on your own and capable anymore, it's jumpin' through hoops to get badges. They won't notice da change. So overall it's just one more incremental erosion of a fine program.

 

Beavah

 

[gcnphkr]

I also think this is just the start. There will be definitions what "present" means (and it will not be 300').

 

I'm trying to rent three sites at the council camps for about 30 scouts in order to get the separation. I keep getting push back of "These sites are really big. Any of them will handle your troop." The idea of having this much separation is foreign to the professionals.

 

Chemical fuel (including propane and butane) is only to be used under adult supervision. Alcohol is prohibited as a fuel. While not yet actively discouraged, the use of campfires is becoming more marginalized. Look for that to be prohibited without adult supervisor soon.

 

Swimming and other aquatic activities require adults supervision.

 

Soon hiking will be added to the list.

 

 

[shortridge]

Let's not get too carried away here. Restrictions on campfires that units may be experiencing are due to local conditions (e.g., fire warnings) and increasing environmental awareness, NOT safety.

 

A campfire might burn one kid. An exploding propane tank could hurt many more.

[Beavah]

An exploding propane tank could hurt many more.

 

Has anybody anywhere ever seen a propane tank explode on a campout? Other than in Hollywood? I'm pretty sure it'd be hard to get a real one to burst even if yeh tossed it into a roaring bonfire.

 

Gotta protect da kids from Hollywood, though. Or maybe that's the adults we have to protect.

 

Beavah

 

[BadenP]

Personally I would like to see this become the final requirement for the highest scouting honor, the Eagle, "the candidate will sucessfully lead a patrol on an expedition of at least two nights using and teaching as many of his scoutcraft skills as possible, and without any adult supervision." This ,IMO, would be a much better test of leadership and scoutcraft than the current crop of watered down Eagle projects, cleaning a playground, painting park benches, and many even worse. It is something definitely worth considering Mr. Mazzuca if you are really serious about preserving and growing the scouting program.

[moosetracker]

I didn't get an exploding tank, but I did get singed eyebrows and almost burned down the house..

Dear husband has conviently forgotten the whole thing.. "What, huh? Never happened.. Not me".. But I was the equal dunder-head!!

He was the Eagle scout, we were only cubscout parents, but I had grown up camping.. So we had a nice fire in the fireplace with the doors closed so that it was a enclosed heater..

 

Big No, No number one, I tried to use the camp stove in the house on the kitchen table.. (Yes.. ventalation.. Don't do.. Bad girl..)

 

Well then Eagle Scout hubby has the brain storm, to place it on the fire place hearth..

 

Like a jerk.. I go along with it.. So the roar & upsweep of the flames in the fireplace gave me just enough notice to back up from the stove, and I just got my eyelashes, eyebrows, some hair and I think one sleeve on fire..

 

My husband grabbed the fire extenguisher and put out the camp stove, but the stone mantle and large brick work, really had the stove fire pretty contained..

 

No explosion from the stove, but hubby was in the dog house for not rushing to extinguish his wife on fire.. And got a teased and harrassed for his great Eagle Scout knowledge.. (But then maybe his plan was to set the wife on fire.. One never knows....)

 

So I agree with Beavah.. It would take alot to explode the camp stove.. I am the living dummy proof...