Help, the boys are not allowed to vote

[richardhawk]

I am a new Parent in a Troop and was a scout for 2 years when I was a youth. My experience in running a troop is little to none. I have completed all of the required training to be an Assistant Scout Master. We have a new Scoutmaster and the previous Scoutmaster is still active in the troop.

 

The New Scoutmaster wants to make changes to the program that moves the Troop further along in the 'Boy Lead' area. He is really focused on leadership development. He is running into a committee that does not want to make changes and have challenged the SM's authority to make program changes.

 

I tell the SM that it will take time to change some things. Our Troop is active, organized, growing, etc. so not all things are bad. Which I believed was true . . . until I received the following email from the CC.

 

"There will be a special committee meeting tomorrow, Wed., Feb. 23, at 6:30 for the appointment of the Assistant Senior Patrol Leader. Senior Patrol Leader and Assistant Senior Patrol Leader are the only two scout positions in the troop that the committee votes on.

 

Procedure:

-Parents of candidates will be asked to leave the room.

-Candidates will each introduce themselves and give brief presentation of their ideas and why they think they are qualified

-Past Senior Patrol leaders and current assistant senior patrol leader will give input

-Scoutmaster and Assistants will give input

-Discussion and questions

-Vote by all committee members present (you are part of the committee if you have a son in the troop. One vote per family.)

 

Note: Please abstain from voting if you do not know any of the candidates."

 

EOM

 

WOW! What the heck happened here? I cannot believe the parents have hijacked the election process of who will be the SPL. I know that the SM Handbook and SPL Handbook both state that the SPL is elected by the boys of the troop.

I have already called our COR and he will talk with the CC. I hope he can undo this before a new ASPL is announced. I don't want a potential leader disappointed if the process is overturned later.

 

Thoughts?

[The Blancmange]

You already know this is wrong. Show the committee the materials from Troop Committee challenge (sorry I don't have a link, but your could probably search that pretty easily). Show them the section on youth leadership selection from the scoutmaster handbook. Show them the same section from past SM handbooks, if you can get your hand on any. Point out the fact that this has always been a job of the scouts working with the SM. It has never been a committee function.

 

Finally, suggest that they all get trained, or a refresher if they claim to have done it. Suggest that they let the SM do is job. I cannot think of a scenario where the process mentioned above would be a good idea.

[SeattlePioneer]

Oh, my!

 

 

 

[raisinemright]

WOW! Sounds like some committee members need to re-read all the rulebooks. The time to stop this nonsense is right now. SPLs are voted by the troop, not the committee.

 

Now I really sound like a hypocrite. Our troop is brand new. Like, 6 weeks old. Only two scouts are above 2C. (Life and Star) Only two of the other scouts were even cubs, so they are all brand new at the Scouting game. The senior guys were appointed SPL and ASPL for a very strict 6 month term at which point all the scouts have ben told we will have scout elections.

 

For an established troop, comittee should have very little to do with scout leadership positions. I can be easily pursuaded that the SM should be able to approve candidates, but that is all.

 

I've had an occasion where a scout was voted PL and then disappeared for 4 months for Basketball. That is what could have been avoided with a little bit of vetting by the SM.

[ScoutNut]

Were you in the Troop the last time the SPL/ASPL changed?

 

Is this a brand new procedure, or is this the way it has always been done?

 

If this is the way the Troop has always been run, you, and the new SM, are going to have an uphill battle to change anything.

[richardhawk]

Yes, I was one of those new dads who really had no clue of what was going on.

 

Also, this is the time of year that I am co-chair of a fundraising event and we have our meetings every other Wednesday. Likely I was not present when the committee voted last year. Another parent in the troop stated that they have been doing this for several years.

 

Uphill and onward we go.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

Well, yeh know, I've been around da block a few dozen times. But every now and again, yeh hear somethin' new.

 

Now I reckon we all think this process is odd, eh? But other things in da troop seem to be going well. Do yeh have a sense for how this process has gone in the past? Is there a reason or at least a rationale for it?

 

One of da ways yeh can perhaps keep whatever the committe feels is good about da process and allow 'em to save face is to change it so that the boys vote on the SPL, but the SPL elect has to go before da committee for approval afterward? Or the other way around... Da SPL candidates have to present themselves before the committee to be put on the slate of candidates. That can be a nice, friendly, mentoring conversation and "interest filter".

 

Those meetings should of course be a rubber stamp, but they might help da parents on the committee have confidence in the elected youth leaders.

 

Good luck with it,

 

Beavah

 

[The Blancmange]

 

If this is the way the Troop has always been run, you, and the new SM, are going to have an uphill battle to change anything.

Probably so, but that doesn't mean it isn't a battle (if that is the best term) worth undertaking.

 

Our troop is brand new.  . . . The senior guys were appointed SPL and ASPL for a very strict 6 month term at which point all the scouts have ben told we will have scout elections.

As Ted Striker might say, "It's an entirely differnt kind of scouting, altogether." I see nothing wrong with this plan, and no comparison to the OP. This is for a very limited time while the Scouts learn how scouting works, with a plan to move to the accepted method.  And I'm guessing it was the SM who had the largest part in developing the plan.

[CalicoPenn]

I'll bet dollars to donuts that this unit has a set of bylaws, and that the procedure for selecting the SPL and ASPL is in the bylaws. I can't think of a better piece of evidence for my continuing insistence that Troops do NOT need bylaws.

 

You can pull all the info you want from the Scoutmaster's Handbook, Troop Committee Guide, SPL's Handbook or other BSA literature and it's not likely to change this Committee's procedures. The UC can meet with the CC, or the whole Committee and it won't likely change this Committee's procedures.

 

There are only 2 people and 1 group that can force the change. The 2 people are either the COR or the Institutional Head. If the COR or the IH agree that this procedure is really off the course of True North, they can attend the next Committee meeting and state that the procedure for selecting the SPL and ASPL will no longer be followed, that from now on the boys will select their own SPL and ASPL (without prior screening of candidates by the Committee - sorry, Beavah, I know you're trying to find some kind of middle ground here but the Committee pre/post screening candidates is just as wrong as them selecting them in the first place), and that if any Committee Member has a problem with that, their resignation is hereby accepted - end of statement, no discussion, it's done.

 

The group that can force the change is the Scouts themselves - they simply announce that they will no longer follow that procedure, they will elect their own SPL and ASPL and they will boycott if this policy isn't changed. It will take all of the boys to do this - none puts their name forward for SPL or ASPL, and if any is selected, the Scouts just don't accept them as their true leader. This option is the hardest of all - it means some of the boys will have to oppose their own parents. I'd go for the COR/IH handing down the ultimatum.

 

If neither of these occur, then the only thing left is to run - run as far away from this Troop as possible, and take as many boys as you can. I would even contact as many Webelos Dens as you can to let them know this Troop is not on the path of True North and that people should really think hard before joining it.

[Pack212Scouter]

I caution against Calico's final suggestion. You should never encourage the boys to defy their own parents. You may however encourage them to voice their opinions.

 

I see another issue here also, not nearly as major, but still an issue. The email posted stated that all parents in the Troop are on the Committee. While some units try to follow this, I caution against it. To be a member of the Committee, you have to be approved by the COR/IH and registered to BSA. There are three very good reasons for this. First, it's BSA policy. Second, Committee Members often have access to private information sometimes on the CO, usually on the boys. Thirdly, and most importantly, Committee Members are supposed to be trained so that things like this don't happen! No it doesn't always prevent issues, but if your committee members have proper training, they are less likely to do things such as this.

[SMT224]

This sounds like the Troop I joined 12 years ago... the Committee did most everything from planning all the camping trips to appointing the SPL. There was no Patrol Leaders Council, no Patrols, declining membership, and few outings. The Committee was composed of guys that had grown up in the Troop and that's just the way things were done. When I was appointed Scoutmaster a few years later, I slowly started making changes to the Troop based on what I learned at Scoutmaster training and Round Table. It took a while, but now things almost completely Scout-run with a very active PLC, good Scout Leadership structure, outings every month of the year, and three times the number of Scouts.

 

While the Committee definitely resisted my changes, I was surprised that the Scouts were so used to the way things were in the Troop that they had a hard time changing as well. It took several generations of Scouts to really develop a group of Scouts that were able and willing to take on Troop Leadership and all that goes with it. It took having the PLC and Scout Leadership to become ingrained in the culture of the Troop.

 

The SPL installation you describe sounds like things I watched and found very uncomfortable. But if that's the status quo don't think you can change it by logic or persuasive argument - you will be resisted by all involved who are happy with the way things are. Instead, work to get an active PLC going - if it does not already exist - and plant the seeds of change there. Let the Scouts make the changes from within and slowly the Committee will join in. You are changing the culture of a Troop, and that is no easy task!!

 

 

[Eagle92]

To quote the 9th Doctor (Christopher Eccleston), "RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!"

 

The committee needs to be trained ASAP!. COR, CC and SM need to talk to the parent ASAP about how this is not scouting.

 

While having parents involved can be a good thing, it brings additional resources, it can have it's disadvantages. Folks do not know how the unit is suppose to run, folks thinking it's Webelos III, ad nauseum. I hated it when a trip we planed for several months, took about 7 hours to get there, and the Scouts were prepared for the foul weather, were not allowed to do the hike we were suppose to do b/c of parents thinking it wasn't fair for the Scouts to do it, and their siblings, who were not prepared for the weather, couldn't. So everyone didn't do the hike.

 

 

EDITED: forgot to add that this is an uphill battle. While it looks as if you have all of the scouts best interest in mind, if your son loses interest or is not happy, then do look for another unit.

 

That's a hard decision to make I know, but your son's interest is the #1 thing you need to consider.

(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[Oak Tree]

The Scoutmaster could bring it to a head, too. He could say, "I've been approved by the COR/IH to oversee the troop program. Unless they remove me, program decisions go through me, not the committee. The boys will elect their own leaders."

 

Of course, that sets you up for a pretty bang-up adult clash.

 

Going in quoting rules and books isn't going to fix this. At all. If you want to change the troop, you're going to have to change minds, or at least recruit advocates.

 

The Scoutmaster and the CC need to agree on their vision here. You can pick your battles, or you can fight every possible battle until people are sick of you and banish you and all your crazy new-fangled ideas on how to run a troop.

 

Sure it's an unusual method, but there's no reason it wouldn't work. Lots of organizations select leaders in ways like this. I believe LDS troops often have the SPL appointed by the SM.

 

Some of the time, the adults and kids agree on who would do a good job. Sometimes, there's a kid who puts on a good face for adults but isn't respected by the kids. Is this particular election going to go so badly that you want to fight it.

 

Should they do it this way? No.

Can they? Yes.

Can you find someone in authority who will stop them? Unknown, but I would guess not. Can't hurt to look around and see what everyone thinks (SM, CC, COR, IH).

 

Good luck.

[sherminator505]

?!

[Lisabob]

Ok I think we're all in agreement that this is not the way the program describes the SPL being chosen. Most of us also probably agree that this is not a very good idea.

 

My question is: why on earth would the adults WANT to do this? They're inserting themselves into a situation where they're not needed, and no matter what they do, they're bound to cause tensions. How is this a good thing for anyone?

 

(being realistic, I agree with several others that you'll have a time changing this, especially as "the new guy" in the group. And I wonder, what other interesting twists has this group of adults put on the scouting program?)