How does your Troop seperated into patrols?

[Troop22]

Currently We have 13 Scouts split into 2 patrols. Each patrol consists of 5 Scouts. My SPL, ASPL and Troop Guide lead the show. I am Getting Scouts from 2 differant packs at cross over. I am told 6 Scouts from each pack so we are almost doubling in size.

I know we will need a new patrol so the meeting before cross over the Troop will elect a new PL and he will select an assistant. The next part of the process is why I ask the question that started this thread.

 

I REALLY beleive in MIXED AGE patrols because it has worked out with our current 2 patrols.

Now we need to work on using the patrol method more proficient. When I took over the Troop had 2 patrols but they did everything as 1 big patrol, I need to guide the Troop "back to basics".

Beavah, you are a wealth of knowledge I will have to suggest to the SPL a compitition between patrols tomorrow night at the meeting.

[Stosh]

And one must remember that nothing stays the same, we now have 14 boys and two patrols. We anticipate taking on maybe 4 new Webelos and that means we will be back up to three. My boys constantly recruit and our numbers change dramatically when boys come and go. Not everyone is interested in a boy-led program. When I started I had 5 boys, I have had as many as 26 with 4 patrols, and now we're at 14 anticipating 4 Webelos. So as far as context of my post are concerned, I can speak for troops of 5 and 25. My former troop was 40+ adult-led and I can give insight into how that operated as well.

 

I get a lot of boys that come check out the program. I have a lot transfer out because they don't want boy-led and I have a lot transfer in because they don't want adult-led. I have one boy contemplating joining from another troop, that would put us at 19, and one of my boys is actively recruiting his buddy and that may put us at 20.

 

I'll just put a number after my name on each post so that everyone can keep up!

 

Your mileage may vary,

Stosh (14)

[dkurtenbach]

Adult-imposed competitions in an adult-imposed format to vindicate a rigid adult notion of what patrols should look like? Nah. That is adult-led stuff. Let the boys choose patrol competitions that they want as elements of their program to enhance their program goals. As long as their choices are within BSA rules and policies, comply with the Scout oath and law, and don't overtax the troop's resources, competitions are youth responsibilities. If they succeed, it is due to the boys' efforts; if they fail, the boys will learn from them.

 

Dan K.

[Beavah]

Oh, good heavens dkurtenbach. That's about da most absurdly dark spin yeh could possibly put on any of the comments here. Yeh could say the same thing about outdoors program or uniforming or any of da other methods. Adult imposed campouts to vindicate a rigid adult notion of what scouting should look like? Nah. Let the boys choose which video game to play this week to enhance their program goals. Adult imposed advancement requirements to vindicate a rigid adult notion of what personal growth in a scouting program should look like? Nah. Let the boys choose what they're interested in getting better at. Maybe marching band. Adult imposed clothing to vindicate a rigid adult notion of what a boy should look like?

 

And on and on.

 

We use scoutin' as a way of achieving our CO's vision and goals, eh? Those are adult goals. Youth leadership is just one of da methods that we use in doin' that. It doesn't trump all of the other methods. It's used along with the other methods, like outdoors and uniform and the biggie: Patrol Method. It's best to try to balance these things, eh? Not to replace one with another.

 

So I amend what I said before, dkurtenbach. Yeh might look at balancing your use of advancement and youth leadership with da other 6 methods. Seriously, though, each troop's adult leaders choose which of the methods they emphasize more than the others based on their own personality and level of comfort. Yeh can make scoutin' work with different combinations of the methods. Like jblake says, there are plenty of good-sized troops that de-emphasize Patrol Method or Youth Run or uniform or whatnot. It's just fine if yeh emphasize some methods and downplay others in your troop accordin' to your strengths and interest as an adult. Your troop might choose to avoid all camporees where patrol competition is a central feature because your CO or adults have a philosophical objection to competition, and still do fine scouting.

 

Jblake's posts are interestin' in part because he puts such a strong emphasis on youth run, eh? It's a good challenge to others, because da natural tendency is to be too adult-run. But it also has its traps. So I'm curious about how it's workin' out and what's drivin' his unusual swings in numbers. My guess sounds right, eh? Many lads and families aren't ready for that level of self-motivation, eh? That takes a particular kind of kid. Many kids need more structure to get 'em goin'. That's where patrol method and advancement and such come in to play, eh? They provide structure that some boys need until they become self-motivated independent leaders. At that point advancement doesn't matter anymore, because the lads can manage their own growth without adult-imposed requirements. Until then, advancement is a help.

 

But Troop22 isn't askin' about youth leadership or advancement, eh? He's askin' about Patrol Method, and how to use it well. One of da ways is just to challenge the two patrols to see who can get camp set up the fastest, or who can cook the best dinner. Doesn't have to be a "big deal". Boys are naturally competitive with just da nudge of a challenge (though they might shy away from some big formal adult-run contest). Yeh have done Woodbadge, right?

 

Don't get mad at us just for givin' an abridged version of Green Bar Bill. Patrol method has its place alongside youth leadership. It's got a privileged place because it works da whole way, from young lad to mature independent young man. It gives 'em a structure to follow and be a part of in the beginning, and when they're ready it gives 'em somebody and something to lead.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagledad]

An excellent method of patrol competition is patrol campsite inspections. There is nothing like comparing each others campsite to improve performance. Improving performance is the best tool for improving leadership and patrol pride.

 

I am curious, a few folks over different threads talk about rebuilding patrols every now and then for different reasons. How does that develop the patrol pride and loyalty? Patrol pride is a delicate thing to develop. Once you have it, you got it for a long time. But getting there is 90 percent of the battle. Our troop adds and dissolves patrols depending on the influx, but we never start over and rearrange with all new patrols. So Im curious.

 

Barry

 

[dkurtenbach]

One of the responsibilities of adults in the Boy Scouting program is to ensure that the youth program is a _Scouting_ program, not a video game club or a marching band, or something else that doesn't satisfy the Purposes of the Boy Scouts of America, the Methods, and the Boy Scouting program as set out in BSA publications and training.

 

That sphere of adult control also includes ensuring compliance with applicable laws, rules, and policies; the desires of the Chartered Organization; sound safety rules and practices; and of course the Scout Oath and Law -- a responsibility shared with the youth in the troop. Some of these boundaries and requirements dictate certain elements of the youth program, bar certain activities from being part of the youth program, and remove any options from some features of the youth program; some of them offer many valid options for a youth Scouting program, and areas in which the troop can exercise a lot of discretion.

 

Within and in compliance with those boundaries and requirements ("fully-compliant") is the zone of youth responsibility: Scouting activities chosen by youth, run and supervised by youth in Positions of Responsibility, and carried out by youth in Patrols. In this youth program zone, where all the boundaries are honored and the requirements met, the role of adults is limited to mentoring youth leaders and carrying out program support tasks that are necessary to execute the youth program, but can't for various reasons be done by youth. These support tasks include things like driving to outings, holding Scoutmaster Conferences, signing checks and campground reservation contracts, and teaching or testing outdoor skills when a qualified youth instructor is not available. In other words, within the zone of a fully-compliant youth program, the role of adults is to coach and to fill holes. Sometimes, as when a troop has a lot of new Scouts, more mentoring is required and those holes are bigger; sometimes, as when a troop has a lot of older, experienced Scouts, very little mentoring is needed and those holes are smaller. But even when the holes are big, the adult role is still to coach the boys and fill those holes just enough so that the Scouts are free to do what they _are_ capable of doing (and maybe just a bit beyond). As the Scouts gain skill, knowledge, and experience, the need for advice lessens and the holes shrink, as does the need for adult participation in executing the program.

 

Within the zone of a fully-compliant youth program, there is no reason that the Scouts themselves can't determine how to organize their patrols, even if they are just a bunch of brand new Scouts -- they just need some education and coaching. Within the zone of a fully-compliant youth program, there is no reason that the Scouts themselves can't decide what competitions to hold, even if they are just a bunch of brand new Scouts -- they just need some education and coaching.

 

Of course, adults will always argue that they are dictating certain options or non-required program features to the youth because those elements are the "best" way to get the Scouts from point A to point B, or the Scouts aren't doing things fast enough or efficiently enough, or aren't doing anything. But this usually occurs without ever giving the youth a fair chance to select and carry out their own fully-compliant program features, or a fair chance to gain experience. Adults need to continually ask themselves: Am I taking away youth options because the Scouts aren't trained well enough or experienced enough to choose? If they were trained and experienced, would I let them try something different? Am I giving advice, or am I giving what amounts to an order? Am I telling them what to do because there is no other option, or just because I know that this particular option is successful? Am I dictating to them because in my judgment this is the surest and shortest way to success and there is no point trying something else? Have I educated the Scouts in the fundamental guidelines they must work within? Have I given them a broad array of examples of program features that they can use when deciding what they want to do? Am I giving them a fair chance to make choices within those guidelines, even if I personally would choose something else? Am I giving them a fair chance to execute those choices, giving support as needed, even if I personally disagree with those choices?

 

Dan K.

[Beavah]

Within and in compliance with those boundaries and requirements ("fully-compliant") is the zone of youth responsibility

 

Nope. Leastways, not if you're a Scouting program.

 

Within those boundaries (CO and law and whatnot) lie all of the Methods of Scouting. Youth leadership is but one of them, and doesn't hold a privileged place. That wouldn't be Scouting. We adults aren't just compliance officers.

 

Boys can be wonderful at discussing and comin' up with ideas and solutions within the parameters of their experience and knowledge, with perhaps just a smidge of adult mentoring on the sly. But their experience and knowledge is limited, eh? If that experience has been limited by a troop that doesn't make full use of some of da other methods, then quite naturally they're not in a position to make best use of Youth Leadership method.

 

Follow da whole program, not just one method.

 

Now, there's nothin' at all wrong with boys choosing or changing a patrol structure for their troop. I encourage it.

 

Me, I've always found that youth who have experience with da full program and especially with dynamic patrols always choose that over the artificial structures of school grade levels and such. I mean seriously, what kid these days feels a whole lot of loyalty to the Class of '12? See a lot of class flags and class cheers? Nope? It's not real. They feel loyalty to the Band, or da Theater Program or whatnot. Or perhaps to their school. The places they spend their time. Anybody know of a grade-level-based Band or Theater program? Me neither. In all those sports and school activities kids love, the young join out of interest and talent, and the older experienced kids lead.

 

We had a startup troop here this past year, split off from another bigger troop after some of da usual adult misbehavior. Their boys naturally set up age-based patrols because that's all they knew. Then a few of their PLC did a joint outing with another troop in town that was more Patrol Method focused and they came back enthusiastically advocating for the new way, havin' seen it in action. That's part of our job too, eh? Openin' 'em up to new possibilities.

 

Your mileage may vary, of course. Everything here is just sharin' perspectives or ideas. If yeh aren't interested in some, or don't want to try, or are perfectly happy with everything in your unit then Carry On! If somethin' challenges yeh or gives yeh a new idea or perhaps gives yeh insight on somethin' yeh always felt was just a bit lacking, then give it a whirl.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagle92]

Easy one: let the boys decide.

 

We had an NSP 2 times and it didn't work, so we let the PLs divvy up the new scouts. Every six months when we had unit elections, everyone had the chance to decide which patrol they would join.

 

Once you met criteria, i.e. First Class and Pl for 1, possibly 2 terms (usually the PL would keep getting re-elected so it may have been 2 terms) the Leadership Corps, which roughly correlates to the Venture patrol today, would vote amongst themselves whether you were ready for them or not. That was a BIG deal as #1 you got the cool Trapezoid patch and #2 being a LC member counted towards POR responsibility, so you never had to worry about being SPL, ASPL, etc for advancement. HOWEVER, you were expected to give back to the troop by serving in a position or being an instructor. And yes it was possible to go back to the regular patrols, but did not ever see that happen.

[Twocubdad]

UPDATE -- got the first mommie call re the new patrol rosters. "None of his friends are in his patrol."

 

Well, mom, I personally stood up and explained to the boys that while it's tough to make every one happy, we want all the Scouts to feel like they have at least one or two of their buddies in the patrol with them. They were told that if they really can't live with their new patrol they should discuss it with the SPL and try to work out a solution.

 

"Well, he wasn't there Tuesday...."

 

Uhhh huh...

[Eagledad]

>>Uhhh huh...

[Stosh]

Tough winkies isn't always the best response to concerned parents either. If a bunch of my buddies and I decided to join a club of some sort and the organization was such that I couldn't be with them, I'm pretty much wasting my time with that program. I joined to hang with my buddies, not have someone tell me I can't.

 

Now a Webelos cross-over may not have the self-confidence to take on domineering adults, older boy SPL, and "the system" and question why he can't be with his buddies, but mommy did it for him. Now, let's make fun of the messenger and then we won't have to actually listen to what she's trying to say.

 

I'm afraid that even though I have a few helicopter parents around, this one doesn't really sound all that far off.

 

Heck, most of my parents are hovering around trying to keep the boys in my troop so that they learn leadership and have fun. Most the boys that want out is because it's too much "work" to run the patrols for themselves and want the mommy/daddy adult leaders to do it for them.

 

Well, it sounds like maybe your boy voted with his feet. Let's hope he wasn't a very strong leader in his group or his buddies may come to the same conclusion.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

Since you're interested, Stosh, let me tell you how the rest of the conversation went.

 

First, I let the mom have her say. A lot of stuff about the boy being a year behind in school and always feeling like he's has to be with younger kids; that he's changed schools several times; that he didn't have any friends in his old patrol but stuck it out (as a first-year Scout he was in a NSP with the boys with whom he crossed over. In the past year he's made friends with several older guys.) All good to know.

 

When it was my turn I explained to the mom the reason for and method of the reorganization, which I posted, above, and won't repeat. I also explained that we I took over as SM patrols were assigned by adults. Since, we've tried to let the PLC make the decisions, but this year experimented ith throwing the process open to all the Scouts. Like many things where the Scouts take point, it can get messy and the results are always what the adults would like or what we would have chosen.

 

Ultimately, I told her since her son missed the meeting and his opportunity to have his input, he needed to negotiate a solution and present it to the SPL for his approval. She said her son's three best friends wound up in one patrol and he would be happy if he had one of those guys in his patrol. I suggested that he could perhaps offer to trade with one of the other Scouts in the other patrol, or he could ask one of the boys in his patrol to trade with one of his three friends.

 

In the end, she thought it would be a learning experince for her son to solve the problem for himself.

 

I don't recall either of us mentioning "tough winkies" during the call.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Horizon]

We have 5 Patrols in a Troop that had around 60 boys at re-charter, and will pick up 10+ here as bridging over begins. New Scouts are adopted by patrols that feel up to the challenge. My current patrols seem to be oriented based on the Packs that they came from (yes - we draw from 4-6 different packs, plus we pick up 1-2 older boys each year as well).

 

The Patrols are mixed age. When I became Scoutmaster, I noticed that the Troop was ALWAYS ending up with provisional patrols for campouts, and that the younger Scouts were not getting any supervision from the older ones. I held a Troop meeting where I asked all of the older boys to decide if they wanted to be leaders, and to then recruit up their patrols. It worked pretty well, and the patrols continue to thrive several years later. I have told boys that they are welcome to change patrols IF they new patrol will take them. I ASK older boys not to abandon others without thinking about it.

 

I do allow patrols to have as many as 15 or so. With other activities, this gets me closer to at least 4 on a given campout - minimizing the desire for provisionals.

[Troop22]

More good stuff!!

 

"Adult-imposed competitions in an adult-imposed format to vindicate a rigid adult notion of what patrols should look like? Nah. That is adult-led stuff." not the case at all. I did not impose a thing, just mentioned it and watched the light bulbs light up above their heads.

 

"I will have to suggest to the SPL a compitition between patrols tomorrow night at the meeting."

Notice the word "SUGGEST". The PLC decides what our Troop will do. We as leaders are there to mentor. If the PLC does not like it that is fine but guess what, they jumped all over it. On their own they planned out the next 2 months meetings and picked a Scout Skill to work on for each meeting. They were excited to get started.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

Thanks for the clarification, Twocubdad.

 

As long as the boy is empowered to make choices for himself, it's a good thing!

 

Stosh